92,000 classified military documents leaked

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by PsychoSerenity » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:24 pm

sandinista wrote:Same reason the US attacks civilians, to create terror and fear. You don't have to go into the whole "not intentionally targeting civilians line" because I don't buy it. Feel free to, of course, if you do, but I don't. They clearly have and continue to do so.
Gawdzilla wrote:No arguing with faith.
sandinista wrote:right back at you.
Gawdzilla wrote:So, you have faith in ping pong? Peaking early I see.
sandinista wrote:certainly more faith in ping pong than the US government/military.
Coito ergo sum wrote:whose military is better?
sandinista wrote:better at what? In what sense?
Coito ergo sum wrote:In general.
sandinista wrote:what does better in general mean?
Coito ergo sum wrote:Dude, we're speaking English here.

I know you don't want to answer the question, because you know the only answer you can give is inconsistent with your assertion. So, you evade.

In general: considering or dealing with overall characteristics, universal aspects, or important elements, esp. without considering all details or specific aspects: such as general instructions; a general description; a general resemblance one to another.

Clear enough? Or, is your next question to be "what are 'characteristics'?"
Coito, his assertion was that he has "more faith in ping pong than the US government/military", and your question following that was "whose military is better?". I have to say, I don't know how I'd answer that either. :dono:
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by sandinista » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:24 pm

Coito ergo sum
Your argument is like saying that the Westboro Baptist Church would be "counterattacking" by flying a plane into a gay bar because they object to the United States allowing gay bars to exist.
Only if the gay bar in question had already attacked the Church...which they haven't...bad analogy.

Robert_S
I'm glad I don't live in a Christian state too. But actually, many Muslims leave Islamic states to live in western secular ones.
Yes, many muslims leave, many also don't.
It was a shit counter attack that started an escalation that paved the way for two invasions and shifted the mood in the country to such a frenzy that our military couldn't even get the strategy right to prevent gratuitous deaths.
Not saying if it was good or shit, just that it is. It was an act of desperation by people without the means to attack in other ways (no jet fighters, navy etc)

Coito ergo sum
Dude, we're speaking English here.
Your question was something along the lines of "which military is better". I'm asking you what you mean, you say "better in general" or whatever. That means nothing. Better at what? dude.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:33 pm

sandinista wrote:Coito ergo sum
Your argument is like saying that the Westboro Baptist Church would be "counterattacking" by flying a plane into a gay bar because they object to the United States allowing gay bars to exist.
Only if the gay bar in question had already attacked the Church...which they haven't...bad analogy.
Perfect analogy, since the US had not attacked AL QAETA.
sandinista wrote:[

It was a shit counter attack that started an escalation that paved the way for two invasions and shifted the mood in the country to such a frenzy that our military couldn't even get the strategy right to prevent gratuitous deaths.
Not saying if it was good or shit, just that it is. It was an act of desperation by people without the means to attack in other ways (no jet fighters, navy etc)
They aren't a country. Al Qaeta has no business maintaining an army and attacking anyone. They don't speak for all Muslims or all Arabs, nor do they have any business acting against the US because they are pissed that the US is an ally of Israel or has bases in Saudi Arabia.

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by sandinista » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:37 pm

Six Facts No War Supporter Knows
Submitted by davidswanson on Sat, 2010-07-24 00:23

By David Swanson

This coming week, the House of Representatives is expected to vote on $33 billion for war. A majority of Americans opposes this, but a sizable minority of Americans supports it. No one who supports it can be aware of any of the following six facts.

1. For many months, probably years, at least the second largest and probably the largest source of revenue for the Taliban has been U.S. taxpayers. We are giving the Taliban our money instead of investing it in useful things at home or abroad. "WARLORD, INC.: Extortion and Corruption Along the U.S. Supply Chain in Afghanistan," is a report from the Majority Staff of the Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs in the U.S. House of Representatives. The report documents payoffs to the Taliban for safe passage of U.S. goods, payoffs very likely greater than the Taliban's profits from opium, its other big money maker. And this is neither new nor unknown to top U.S. officials. But it must be unknown to Americans supporting the war. You can't support a war where you're funding both sides unless you want both sides to lose. We lock people away for giving a pair of socks to the enemy, while our own government serves as chief financial sponsor.

2. Our top consumer of oil is the U.S. military. We don't just fight wars in areas of the globe that are coincidentally rich in oil, but fighting those wars is the single biggest way in which we burn oil. We pollute the air in the process of poisoning the earth with all variety of weaponry. According to the 2007 CIA World Fact Book, when oil consumption is broken down per capita, the U.S. military ranks fourth in the world, behind just three actual nations. There's no way to care about the environment while allowing the money that could create renewable energy to be spent instead on an operation whose destructiveness is rivaled only by BP. We could have 20 green energy jobs at $50 K each for what it costs to send one soldier to Afghanistan. We're fighting wars for the fuel to fight wars, even though the process is eating up the funds we could use to try to survive its side-effects.

3. Over half of every U.S. tax dollar is spent on wars, the military, and payments on debt for past wars and military spending. Here's a pie chart that breaks it down for you. If you're concerned about government spending, you can't just be concerned with the minority of it that is carefully funded with taxes and off-setting cuts elsewhere. You have to also consider the single biggest item, the one that takes up a majority of the budget, large chunks of which are routinely funded off the books, borrowed from China, and passed with so-called "emergency supplemental" bills of the sort now before the House of Representatives, the sole purpose of which is to keep the money outside the budget. Numerous economic studies have shown that investing in the military, even at home, does less for the economy than tax cuts, which do less for the economy than investing in education, energy, infrastructure, and other areas. Its wars or jobs, we can't have both. The labor movement has mostly (with some good exceptions) been silent on war spending, in part because jobs spending has been packaged into the same bill. Now it's not. Now the House is confronted with a bill that spends on war the money that is needed for jobs, for housing, for schools, for green energy, for retirement. Will advocates of these raise their voices this week?

4. A leading, and probably the leading, cause of death in the U.S. military is suicide. U.S. troops are killing themselves in record numbers. One central reason for this is likely that these troops have no idea what it is they are risking their lives, and taking others' lives, for. Can we expect them to know, when top officials in Washington don't? When the President's special representative to Afghanistan testified in the Senate recently, senators from both parties asked him repeatedly what the goal was, what success would look like, for what purpose the war went on. Richard Holbrooke had no answers. Senator Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) told the Los Angeles Times: "A lot of folks on both sides of the aisle think this effort is adrift. A lot of folks you'd consider the strongest hawks in the country are scratching their heads in concern." Corker complained that after listening for 90 minutes to Holbrooke he had "no earthly idea what our objectives are on the civilian front. So far, this has been an incredible waste of time."

5. The $33 billion about to be voted on cannot possibly be needed to continue the war in Afghanistan, because it is exclusively to be used for escalating that war. The President was publicly pressured by his generals several months ago to begin an escalation, but Congress has yet to fund it. To the extent that it has been begun unfunded, it can be undone. CNN reports: "Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned senators in June that military operations will need to be reduced for the rest of the year unless Congress approves additional funding for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan." This is nonsense. If this escalation funding were blocked, the war would remain at the level it was at before. And that's if the Pentagon respects the authority of the Congress. The other alternative, openly indicated by Gates, is that the Pentagon will fund the escalation out of its standard budget. Congressman Alan Grayson has a bill called "The War Is Making You Poor Act" which would require that wars be funded out of the military budget, which would eliminate federal taxes on the first $35,000 anyone earned and reduce the national debt. How horrible would that be?

6. War would be the greatest evil on earth even if it were free. Watch this new video of a man whose father was shot and killed while sleeping in bed. More of our tax dollars at work. How many of these stories of what our military does can we write off? Our drones kill both civilians and "insurgents," as do our night raids and check points. Or, maybe not the check points. General Stanley McChrystal said that of the amazing number of people we've killed at check points, none of them have been any threat. And the damage lasts in the places we destroy. Look at this new report on the damage done to the children of Fallujah. This is not because U.S. soldiers aren't brave or their parents didn't raise them well. It's because these wars don't involve pairs of armies on battlefields. We're occupying countries where the enemies look like everyone except us.

Well, maybe our representatives know all of this and still fund wars because people who fund them tell them to. But what can we do about it? We vote whenever there's an election, or at least some of us do. Isn't that our role? What does this have to do with elections? It should have everything to do with them. When we call our congress members this week we should not just ask them to vote No on war money, we should demand it, and we should let them know that we will work to unelect them, even replacing them with someone worse (since you can't get much worse), if they vote for this money. And we should spend August rewarding and punishing accordingly. Here are 88 candidates for Congress this year who have committed to not voting a dime for these wars. They are from every party and political inclination. They should be supported.

If this war funding can be blocked for another week it will be blocked until mid-September and perhaps for good. If we can get closer to doing that than we have before, we will have something to build on. Just holding a straightforward vote in which war opponents vote No and war supporters vote Yes, no matter how close or far we are from winning, will identify who needs to keep their job and who doesn't. If most of the Yes votes are Republican, we will be able to confront the President with the opposition of his own party. We're moving toward peace.

Get resources from http://defundwar.org
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Robert_S » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:59 pm

I'm not for these wars but they are happening and they will be resolved one way or the other.

If, based on the leaked documents, the public decides that it is high time we got out of Iraq and Afghanistan altogether because of these documents, then great. If it helps the Islamists to cut a better deal in the government, thereby depriving Afghanistan of half it's population's brainpower altogether through not allowing girls to go to school or use birth control; and probably more than half of the males brainpower while they try to make sense of the Koran, the Hadith and deal with the modern world at the same time... that would prove the leak to have been heinously irresponsible.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by PsychoSerenity » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:26 pm

Robert_S wrote:I'm not for these wars but they are happening and they will be resolved one way or the other.

If, based on the leaked documents, the public decides that it is high time we got out of Iraq and Afghanistan altogether because of these documents, then great. If it helps the Islamists to cut a better deal in the government, thereby depriving Afghanistan of half it's population's brainpower altogether through not allowing girls to go to school or use birth control; and probably more than half of the males brainpower while they try to make sense of the Koran, the Hadith and deal with the modern world at the same time... that would prove the leak to have been heinously irresponsible.
Hey everybody look, a post on topic after ten pages! :toot: :clap: :woot:

I agree with you here, whether in this instance it's good or bad, depends on the outcome.

But as I understand it, the theory is, if we had open and honest governments, we wouldn't be having most of these wars. And since simply asking governments to be open and honest doesn't seem to work very well, the likes of Wikileaks tries to force them open.

I suppose some people actually don't mind if there are some negative consequences, as long as there are negative consequences for the governments and military, to make them change their ways. Personally I'd want to avoid any collateral damage, and I think releasing such a large quantity was probably a bit stupid.

Perhaps Wikileaks wouldn't get so much flack if they stepped up more campaigns for open government alongside its 'leaks'.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Robert_S » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:39 pm

How this leak could have been done by thoughtful people:

Out of 92,000 pages worth of stuff, there has to be lots and lots of redundancy to the points about the wars that wikileaks wished to make public. So, they should contact military intelligence and ask them which of the documents would jeopardise the war on a tactical level, compromise sources or are significant for reasons other than political ones.

The military intelligence asks wikileaks not to release the documents or parts of documents that would make such compromises plus a few more to introduce some noise so that patterns emerging from the selected information do not amount to giving away more secrets.

Wikileaks then releases those documents to the press.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by JimC » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:14 pm

sandinista wrote:Not sure I get what you're saying Robert_S.
He is saying that the world that islamic terrorists envisage creating is almost certainly the antithesis of anything you would find to be a reasonable future.

The fact that they ride on the coattails of some justifiable resentment of US/Israeli actions doesn't change their deeper intentions...
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by sandinista » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:30 pm

JimC wrote:
sandinista wrote:Not sure I get what you're saying Robert_S.
He is saying that the world that islamic terrorists envisage creating is almost certainly the antithesis of anything you would find to be a reasonable future.

The fact that they ride on the coattails of some justifiable resentment of US/Israeli actions doesn't change their deeper intentions...
And I am not defending any islamic idiots out there, I am saying that I can empathize with the people of the middle east who have been affected negatively through the actions of the US. I also don't think that, besides a tiny insignificant minority, any of them envisage an islamic canaduh or US, it is more about being against a US controlled middle east.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:40 pm

sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:
sandinista wrote:Not sure I get what you're saying Robert_S.
He is saying that the world that islamic terrorists envisage creating is almost certainly the antithesis of anything you would find to be a reasonable future.

The fact that they ride on the coattails of some justifiable resentment of US/Israeli actions doesn't change their deeper intentions...
And I am not defending any islamic idiots out there, I am saying that I can empathize with the people of the middle east who have been affected negatively through the actions of the US. I also don't think that, besides a tiny insignificant minority, any of them envisage an islamic canaduh or US, it is more about being against a US controlled middle east.
So....... you don't think Al Qaeta was justified in attacking the US on 9/11?

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by sandinista » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:46 pm

Of course not. I can empathize, doesn't mean I believe it was justified any more or less than the US or anyone for that matter is justified bombing people or killing en mass. I can see WHY it happened, I can empathize, I can understand, none of this means I support it.
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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:49 pm

sandinista wrote:Of course not. I can empathize, doesn't mean I believe it was justified any more or less than the US or anyone for that matter is justified bombing people or killing en mass. I can see WHY it happened, I can empathize, I can understand, none of this means I support it.
So, you don't think the Al Qaeta attack was justified, but you understand it.

Do you also understand the US's response? And, do you think the response (in Afghanistan) was justified under the circumstances?

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Re: 92,000 classified military documents leaked

Post by sandinista » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:53 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:Of course not. I can empathize, doesn't mean I believe it was justified any more or less than the US or anyone for that matter is justified bombing people or killing en mass. I can see WHY it happened, I can empathize, I can understand, none of this means I support it.
So, you don't think the Al Qaeta attack was justified, but you understand it.

Do you also understand the US's response? And, do you think the response (in Afghanistan) was justified under the circumstances?
Your sure interested in my opinions aren't you. I "understand" the US's response, in fact it didn't surprise me in the least, in the same way that the attacks in 2001 on the US also didn't surprise me. No, I do not think for a second that the response in Afghanistan was justified.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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