"Alt-right" Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

[Brian Peacock]

The reality where respecting Nazis is naive.

Dehumanizing and disenfranchising any group is deplorable.

Stopped reading here. WTF is wrong with some people?! We are talking about Nazism. The most evil ideology ever unleashed on the world. People who support that shit are subhuman.

I'm less worried about Nazis who generally stick to burning crosses on their cousin's farm than I am about the current wave from the left which seeks to dismantle our civil liberties around the world. People like you are the problem. Everyone is equal under the law and that's the way it should be. It used to be the black minority that found its freedom of speech oppressed, many people fought long, drawn out, legal battles to make everyone equal party to the freedoms our western democracies afford. Now people like you want to turn around and start up the engine of discrimination in the accordance of rights and freedoms because you've got a target group you don't like. Well who's next on the list? Muslims? Christians? People who vote for the wrong political party? People who don't chant the party line quite loudly enough perhaps, or maybe those sick bastards who have the temerity to stand up to your toxic tirades and say we have something more important at stake than the pain you experience being exposed to an odious ideology and take a stand, not to silence you, but to persuade you to see things differently.

Sam Harris recently retweeted a tweet from the ACLU about preserving the freedom of speech for those we hate. Maybe you ought to try reading some of it.

Do people have a civil liberty or human right to advocate and agitate for the social, civil, legal and/or forced exclusion of this-or-that group, to advocate limiting their participation in community and public life, to advocate extreme remedies such as ethnic cleansing, or even genocide (note I'm not questioning anyeone's right to hold those kinds of opinions here)? Are anyone else's civil liberties challenged or undermined by such advocacy?

[Jason]

If they exceed the limits of protected speech there are authorities in place who will arbitrate the issue, but yes there are limits to free speech.

[pErvinalia]

The reality where respecting Nazis is naive.

Dehumanizing and disenfranchising any group is deplorable.

Stopped reading here. WTF is wrong with some people?! We are talking about Nazism. The most evil ideology ever unleashed on the world. People who support that shit are subhuman.

I'm less worried about Nazis who generally stick to burning crosses on their cousin's farm than I am about the current wave from the left which seeks to dismantle our civil liberties around the world. People like you are the problem. Everyone is equal under the law and that's the way it should be. It used to be the black minority that found its freedom of speech oppressed, many people fought long, drawn out, legal battles to make everyone equal party to the freedoms our western democracies afford. Now people like you want to turn around and start up the engine of discrimination in the accordance of rights and freedoms because you've got a target group you don't like. Well who's next on the list? Muslims? Christians? People who vote for the wrong political party? People who don't chant the party line quite loudly enough perhaps, or maybe those sick bastards who have the temerity to stand up to your toxic tirades and say we have something more important at stake than the pain you experience being exposed to an odious ideology and take a stand, not to silence you, but to persuade you to see things differently.

That's an impressive pile of straw there. Well done. I said nothing at all about removing their right to free speech. Next time try reading for comprehension.

[pErvinalia]

Infantile - it makes a strawman of the real issues under discussion - but just the sort of post-truth tactic I, and many others, have come to expect from the ex-rationalists of the modern left-wing.

It's not infantile at all. It perfectly describes the naivety and false equivalency by the liberal centre.

[Jason]

The reality where respecting Nazis is naive.

Dehumanizing and disenfranchising any group is deplorable.

Stopped reading here. WTF is wrong with some people?! We are talking about Nazism. The most evil ideology ever unleashed on the world. People who support that shit are subhuman.

I'm less worried about Nazis who generally stick to burning crosses on their cousin's farm than I am about the current wave from the left which seeks to dismantle our civil liberties around the world. People like you are the problem. Everyone is equal under the law and that's the way it should be. It used to be the black minority that found its freedom of speech oppressed, many people fought long, drawn out, legal battles to make everyone equal party to the freedoms our western democracies afford. Now people like you want to turn around and start up the engine of discrimination in the accordance of rights and freedoms because you've got a target group you don't like. Well who's next on the list? Muslims? Christians? People who vote for the wrong political party? People who don't chant the party line quite loudly enough perhaps, or maybe those sick bastards who have the temerity to stand up to your toxic tirades and say we have something more important at stake than the pain you experience being exposed to an odious ideology and take a stand, not to silence you, but to persuade you to see things differently.

That's an impressive pile of straw there. Well done. I said nothing at all about removing their right to free speech. Next time try reading for comprehension.

It's not even about free speech at the bottom, that's why I'm talking about equality under law and things like dehumanizing to ease the move to disenfranchise. It's not a strawman, it's the debate currently on the table - I just used 'short hand' to address it.

You can't possibly be that obtuse to not know that. Nice try to dodge, but it's a no go.

[Tero]

[laklak]

Do people have a civil liberty or human right to advocate and agitate for the social, civil, legal and/or forced exclusion of this-or-that group, to advocate limiting their participation in community and public life, to advocate extreme remedies such as ethnic cleansing, or even genocide (note I'm not questioning anyeone's right to hold those kinds of opinions here)? Are anyone else's civil liberties challenged or undermined by such advocacy?

Are you talking about Sanford or UCLA?

[Jason]

It was only a matter of time and I blame the media. The Lunatic Fringe of the far left gets way too much publicity. They really don't amount to a pile of shit in the greater scheme of things, but if you watch or read the news they're EVERYWHERE! Bubba Earl and Jimmy Bob are a'gettin' theyselves all worked up, and eventually, like good rednecks everywhere, they gonna open a can of whup-ass on somebody or t'other. Of course the anti-fa idiots didn't help, if they'd just let the morons alone they'd have had their parade and gone home to their Bud Light, but they had to Take A Stand against fascism and all that.

I disagree. The lunatic far-left all but dictates the terms of the debate in campuses all across North America and is very busy indoctrinating the student bodies with their rabid ideology that dictates the dehumanizing and disenfranchising of any and all opposition to that ideology. Their preaching is deliberately antithetical to open and rational discussion - you tow the party line or you're branded and made a pariah, or worse. They only wish to silence and abuse the opposition. They wish to strip them of their humanity, strip them of legitimacy, and strip them of their voice in society. What's more they do so through the use of post-truth tactics which have no regard for the verity of the claims made in their rhetoric - they only care for the emotional effect of it - if it moves the people in the direction they wish.

If you think this is restricted to college and university campuses then you need to pull your head out of your neurotic ass. It's omnipresent in the left in general.

Michael Shermer just had an interesting article printed in SciAm about the rabid post-truth ideology that is spreading its wings in the ranks of the left-wing of politics and how its infecting the minds of tomorrow on college and university campuses everywhere. It's pretty short and I think he really pulls the punches, but at least there are some big names addressing the issue and raising awareness in a high profile magazine.

Here it is: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... modernism/

[JimC]

pErvin wrote:

It's not infantile at all. It perfectly describes the naivety and false equivalency by the liberal centre.

Well, actually I must disagree. The cartoon is exagerrated for comic purposes. No one in their right mind would say that a compromise between 2 positions is always possible, particularly if one position is an extreme. Using that example to attack the general idea of finding a reasonable position somewhere between 2 competing polities undervalues the art of compromise, at least for the many (but not all) situations in it can be employed.

[Brian Peacock]

Do people have a civil liberty or human right to advocate and agitate for the social, civil, legal and/or forced exclusion of this-or-that group, to advocate limiting their participation in community and public life, to advocate extreme remedies such as ethnic cleansing, or even genocide (note I'm not questioning anyeone's right to hold those kinds of opinions here)? Are anyone else's civil liberties challenged or undermined by such advocacy?

Are you talking about Sanford or UCLA?

Neither. I think my point cuts both ways. It doesn't really matter which group is doing the advocating or which group is on the receiving end of it - imo anyway.

[pErvinalia]

Dehumanizing and disenfranchising any group is deplorable.

Stopped reading here. WTF is wrong with some people?! We are talking about Nazism. The most evil ideology ever unleashed on the world. People who support that shit are subhuman.

I'm less worried about Nazis who generally stick to burning crosses on their cousin's farm than I am about the current wave from the left which seeks to dismantle our civil liberties around the world. People like you are the problem. Everyone is equal under the law and that's the way it should be. It used to be the black minority that found its freedom of speech oppressed, many people fought long, drawn out, legal battles to make everyone equal party to the freedoms our western democracies afford. Now people like you want to turn around and start up the engine of discrimination in the accordance of rights and freedoms because you've got a target group you don't like. Well who's next on the list? Muslims? Christians? People who vote for the wrong political party? People who don't chant the party line quite loudly enough perhaps, or maybe those sick bastards who have the temerity to stand up to your toxic tirades and say we have something more important at stake than the pain you experience being exposed to an odious ideology and take a stand, not to silence you, but to persuade you to see things differently.

That's an impressive pile of straw there. Well done. I said nothing at all about removing their right to free speech. Next time try reading for comprehension.

It's not even about free speech at the bottom, that's why I'm talking about equality under law and things like dehumanizing to ease the move to disenfranchise. It's not a strawman, it's the debate currently on the table - I just used 'short hand' to address it.

You can't possibly be that obtuse to not know that. Nice try to dodge, but it's a no go.

Fuck off, it was all straw. My debate in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with free speech under the law. If it's about "dehumanizing" that has fuck all to do with free speech. Do you need a lesson on what free speech actually is? Ironically, it seems you are unaware that "dehumanizing" someone falls under the purvue of your beloved free speech. So are you for free speech or not?

[pErvinalia]

It was only a matter of time and I blame the media. The Lunatic Fringe of the far left gets way too much publicity. They really don't amount to a pile of shit in the greater scheme of things, but if you watch or read the news they're EVERYWHERE! Bubba Earl and Jimmy Bob are a'gettin' theyselves all worked up, and eventually, like good rednecks everywhere, they gonna open a can of whup-ass on somebody or t'other. Of course the anti-fa idiots didn't help, if they'd just let the morons alone they'd have had their parade and gone home to their Bud Light, but they had to Take A Stand against fascism and all that.

I disagree. The lunatic far-left all but dictates the terms of the debate in campuses all across North America and is very busy indoctrinating the student bodies with their rabid ideology that dictates the dehumanizing and disenfranchising of any and all opposition to that ideology. Their preaching is deliberately antithetical to open and rational discussion - you tow the party line or you're branded and made a pariah, or worse. They only wish to silence and abuse the opposition. They wish to strip them of their humanity, strip them of legitimacy, and strip them of their voice in society. What's more they do so through the use of post-truth tactics which have no regard for the verity of the claims made in their rhetoric - they only care for the emotional effect of it - if it moves the people in the direction they wish.

If you think this is restricted to college and university campuses then you need to pull your head out of your neurotic ass. It's omnipresent in the left in general.

Michael Shermer just had an interesting article printed in SciAm about the rabid post-truth ideology that is spreading its wings in the ranks of the left-wing of politics and how its infecting the minds of tomorrow on college and university campuses everywhere. It's pretty short and I think he really pulls the punches, but at least there are some big names addressing the issue and raising awareness in a high profile magazine.

I'll read the article in a little bit, but we've got our own Michael Shermer here on the forum - CES/42. And even from his endless threads about this stuff, it's clear that this is only a fringe movement at a tiny number of colleges in the US. The fractions we are talking about are miniscule. And not to mention that most of the left think these people are fucking nutbags. They have very little traction.

[pErvinalia]

pErvin wrote:

It's not infantile at all. It perfectly describes the naivety and false equivalency by the liberal centre.

Well, actually I must disagree. The cartoon is exagerrated for comic purposes. No one in their right mind would say that a compromise between 2 positions is always possible, particularly if one position is an extreme. Using that example to attack the general idea of finding a reasonable position somewhere between 2 competing polities undervalues the art of compromise, at least for the many (but not all) situations in it can be employed.

Well it is a caricature, so it's not supposed to be literal. It's highlighting the naivety and false equivalency that the liberal centre engage in.

[Hermit]

Ironically, it seems you are unaware that "dehumanizing" someone falls under the purvue of your beloved free speech.

Hence:

People who support that shit are subhuman.

[pErvinalia]

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying, but I'll assume you are agreeing with me that expressing a negative opinion about a group of people who chose to belong to that group is a free speech issue.