What would a true communist society/country look like?

[sandinista]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism. You can still have freedom of expression, freedom of movement, freedom of religion and so on whilst evenly splitting a groups total income amongst all members - this is provided that all members of the group are willing participants. Historically, though, "communist" regimes have had to eliminate freedoms in order to force compliance upon the members of the state.

It is, however, distinctly anti-libertarianism.

Capitalist, or "liberal democratic" societies eliminate "freedoms" as well. No one is "free" to do whatever they want in any sort of society. Thats why I am unclear as to what the fear of losing "freedoms" is all about.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism. You can still have freedom of expression, freedom of movement, freedom of religion and so on whilst evenly splitting a groups total income amongst all members - this is provided that all members of the group are willing participants. Historically, though, "communist" regimes have had to eliminate freedoms in order to force compliance upon the members of the state.

It is, however, distinctly anti-libertarianism.

Capitalist, or "liberal democratic" societies eliminate "freedoms" as well. No one is "free" to do whatever they want in any sort of society. Thats why I am unclear as to what the fear of losing "freedoms" is all about.

I know but none of these systems are intrinsically anti-liberty, including communism. I think he meant libertarianism, doing whatever you want despite the effects on others, usually for financial gain?

[Coito ergo sum]

What is this "individual liberty" you speak of that you're concerned with being "crushed"?

Individual liberty is the freedom of an individual to do that which he or she has the will to do, without undue interference, where an individual is protected from tyranny and the arbitrary exercise of authority. I mean the liberal concept of liberty - liberals, traditionally, saw themselves as advocates of liberty, and by liberty they meant the right of individuals to do as they pleased with their own lives and their own property, absent harm to others.

Marx, of course, denounced individual liberty, and liberalism, as a manifestation of what he called "bourgeois freedom." The doctrine of the rights of man was faulty, according to Marx, because, as he said in his Critique of the Gotha Program, he views things like freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion - you know - the things that many of us think are "fundamental human rights" as "hollow freedoms." And, as he wrote in "On the Jewish Question" - he saw the right to own property as something that individuals should not have because it made men view other men as a limitation on their own liberty.

Marx's concept of freedom is nothing more than a defense of tyranny and oppression. No dissident or non-conformist can see "society" as the, as Marx phrased it in On the Jewish Question, "a realization of his own liberty." And what can Marx's attack on "the right to do everything which does not harm others" amount to in practice, except a justification for coercing people who are not harming others? The problem with Marx's "broad" notions of freedom is that they necessarily wind up condoning the violation of "narrow" notions of freedom. Under what Marx calls the "bourgeois" notions of religious liberty, people may practice any religion they wish or no religion at all - but Marx refers to that as "a private whim or caprice"; how could this liberty be broadened, without sanctioning the persecution of some religious views?

The way I see it Marx attacked liberty under the guise of expanding it. In so doing, he re-packaged despotism. And, everywhere Marxism has been tried, we've seen that borne out.

[sandinista]

he said once he wasn't a librarian...uh or libertarian. Libertarianism, and new word for laissez faire capitalism? Seems like it to me anyway.

[Coito ergo sum]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism.

Marx did.

[sandinista]

What is this "individual liberty" you speak of that you're concerned with being "crushed"?

Individual liberty is the freedom of an individual to do that which he or she has the will to do, without undue interference, where an individual is protected from tyranny and the arbitrary exercise of authority. I mean the liberal concept of liberty - liberals, traditionally, saw themselves as advocates of liberty, and by liberty they meant the right of individuals to do as they pleased with their own lives and their own property, absent harm to others.

Oh, so you are a libertarian? How could you be concerned with losing the above when the above doesn't even exist presently?

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

he said once he wasn't a librarian...uh or libertarian. Libertarianism, and new word for laissez faire capitalism? Seems like it to me anyway.

Same thing. Unfortunately there are many, especially within the US, who get libertarianism mixed up with liberty

[Coito ergo sum]

he said once he wasn't a librarian...uh or libertarian. Libertarianism, and new word for laissez faire capitalism? Seems like it to me anyway.

He was denouncing the ideas of liberty espoused by Locke, Hobbes, Mill, and the like. Enlightenment Liberalism.

Hey, at least I answer your questions directly. Try it. It sure makes discussing and exchanging ideas a tad easier.

[sandinista]

so, yah, you're a librarian, ah, fuck, I mean libertarian?

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism.

Marx did.

Because Marx wrote about implementing Communism. The base ideal of communism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", is not necessarily anti-liberty.

[Coito ergo sum]

he said once he wasn't a librarian...uh or libertarian. Libertarianism, and new word for laissez faire capitalism? Seems like it to me anyway.

Same thing. Unfortunately there are many, especially within the US, who get libertarianism mixed up with liberty

I didn't mention libertarianism. I discussed Marx's point of view concerning Enlightenment liberalism.

[Coito ergo sum]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism.

Marx did.

Because Marx wrote about implementing Communism. The base ideal of communism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", is not necessarily anti-liberty.

Sure it is. I'll explain exactly why it's anti-liberty.

The individual doesn't get to decide what his needs are and what his ability is. The community decides that for him. That is a huge deprivation of liberty.

[sandinista]

Technically, Marx theorized that Communism is inevitable. Once society passes through capitalism. I tend to agree. Historical materialism.

[Coito ergo sum]

so, yah, you're a librarian, ah, fuck, I mean libertarian?

Just another dodge. Why do you even bother posting here? You're obviously about as educated on the topic of communism as a first year college kid who just heard one of his former hippie radical professors speak for five minutes on the topic.

[sandinista]

I wouldn't say that individual liberty necessarily is incompatible with communism.

Marx did.

Because Marx wrote about implementing Communism. The base ideal of communism, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", is not necessarily anti-liberty.

Sure it is. I'll explain exactly why it's anti-liberty.

The individual doesn't get to decide what his needs are and what his ability is. The community decides that for him. That is a huge deprivation of liberty.

The community is made up of individuals. The community is not an outside element.

he said once he wasn't a librarian...uh or libertarian. Libertarianism, and new word for laissez faire capitalism? Seems like it to me anyway.

Same thing. Unfortunately there are many, especially within the US, who get libertarianism mixed up with liberty

I didn't mention libertarianism. I discussed Marx's point of view concerning Enlightenment liberalism.

I am just asking if you consider yourself a libertarian , you seem to follow all the same dogma.