Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

...While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well....

Oh no! You have written a nuanced comment about variations within religions! You are clearly a racist islamophobic homophobe!

Please explain this logic. Have you been reading the discussion, or are you just making sarky comments without bothering to do that?

If the cap fits, wear it!

[mistermack]

Certainly he may have hated gays independent of his religion, but it's also pretty clear from his father's comments that he would have been influenced by the version of islam that detests gays, so at the very least it is a contributing factor...

What, you mean there's a version that doesn't detest gays?

[JimC]

Certainly he may have hated gays independent of his religion, but it's also pretty clear from his father's comments that he would have been influenced by the version of islam that detests gays, so at the very least it is a contributing factor...

What, you mean there's a version that doesn't detest gays?

Well, in the West there are muslims prepared to cautiously support their own LGBT members, so one can't say that all are against it. In predominantly muslim countries such as Pakistan, the official position still remains clearly (and often violently) opposed...

[mistermack]

Certainly he may have hated gays independent of his religion, but it's also pretty clear from his father's comments that he would have been influenced by the version of islam that detests gays, so at the very least it is a contributing factor...

What, you mean there's a version that doesn't detest gays?

Well, in the West there are muslims prepared to cautiously support their own LGBT members, so one can't say that all are against it. In predominantly muslim countries such as Pakistan, the official position still remains clearly (and often violently) opposed...

That's all true.
Whether the more liberal muslims constitute a version of Islam is more debatable though.

I suppose they all have their own version in their heads, but that goes for all sorts.
Most Catholics have no objection to using birth control, but it doesn't constitute a version of Catholicism.
I suppose in the long term, it might. But with Islam, they are so bound up with the literal words in the Koran, that I can't see much changing.
There will always be some people who live the religion less stringently than others, but the religion itself isn't likely to change.

It's not like the Church of England, where it's so vague, you don't really need to believe in Jesus as a god to be a priest.

[Hermit]

Whether the more liberal muslims constitute a version of Islam is more debatable though.

I suppose they all have their own version in their heads, but that goes for all sorts.
Most Catholics have no objection to using birth control, but it doesn't constitute a version of Catholicism.
I suppose in the long term, it might. But with Islam, they are so bound up with the literal words in the Koran, that I can't see much changing.
There will always be some people who live the religion less stringently than others, but the religion itself isn't likely to change.

It's not like the Church of England, where it's so vague, you don't really need to believe in Jesus as a god to be a priest.

There is no limitation to which we can rationalise stuff that is contrary to very clearly and unambiguously expressed statements. During a chat with my mother our chaplain assured her: "Although the Pope is still against all contraception except for the rhythm method and abstinence, God will surely leave the decision of whether you take the pill up to you. If you take it with a clear conscience, he'll have no problem with that." No cardinal, bishop, priest, pastor and churchgoer believed that everything was created in six days and the world is 6000 years old. Those bits of the bible - and many others besides - were just pious allegories. The Vatican even officially and formally apologised to Galileo at last. I remember my parents making fun of that: "Only 300 years late," they observed with an amused smile.

There is no end to the changes one can make to any set of beliefs and still remain a true believer, be it through distortions or cherry picking. In fact, I think cherry picking and at least distortions are absolutely necessary, given the number of contradictions within the Bible, the Qur'an and for all I know, the holy scriptures of other religions. History is full of dead true believers that have been slain by other true believers.

[Svartalf]

let's face it, most islamic states with the exception of Iran have a totally secular government

The state in Turkey is secular, but I don't see the justification for that comment otherwise, unless it was sarcasm, in which case how does it address anything in this thread?

States like SSaudi Arabia, Jordania, Morocco, Egypt ... have islam as a state religion, but you don't see imams as heads of state, it's either old nobility, or the army. those countries have essentially secular govenrment, even if they are not as secular as Turkey used to be (and no longer is since erdogan took power)

[cronus]

let's face it, most islamic states with the exception of Iran have a totally secular government

The state in Turkey is secular, but I don't see the justification for that comment otherwise, unless it was sarcasm, in which case how does it address anything in this thread?

States like SSaudi Arabia, Jordania, Morocco, Egypt ... have islam as a state religion, but you don't see imams as heads of state, it's either old nobility, or the army.

Irrelevant on a day to day basis, who is in charge of a society? The man with the gun or the man who can get you hung for a gay snog? In the West the politicians are in charge but they invest loads of time and effort into educational systems that keep a populace in a torpor. Same thing in your Musi countries except religious teachers teach ignorance, but the social control of the populace is the same. Instead of physics they learn hate from their cursed religious texts...

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran ... /long.html

[JimC]

Crumple wrote:

...but they invest loads of time and effort into educational systems that keep a populace in a torpor...

Nonsense! Media, advertising, some government actions and consumerist ideology may well have that effect, but in general, most educational systems strive to do the opposite, if with little effect...

[cronus]

Crumple wrote:

...but they invest loads of time and effort into educational systems that keep a populace in a torpor...

Nonsense! Media, advertising, some government actions and consumerist ideology may well have that effect, but in general, most educational systems strive to do the opposite, if with little effect...

Teach to the test, remove all original thought - over focus on the basics - that's how it is here....a few thrive in the toxic environment, most leave knowing less than when they started....in terms of life long learning and being motivated self starters...that's here though, where politicians have meddled with teachers autonomy for two or three generations.

[pErvinalia]

Seems he may have been gay himself. Was a regular visitor to the club and used a gay dating app.

[cronus]

Seems he may have been gay himself. Was a regular visitor to the club and used a gay dating app.

Worst homophobes are always repressed screwed up gays. Living up to the stereotype....urgent gay/lesbian rights are addressed within the Muslim community to prevent repeats.

[mistermack]

Right through the Middle East, gays are being killed and victimised.
In ISIS controlled parts of Syria, they have been taking suspected gays to the top of tall buildings and throwing them off.
And the "opressed" local population have been coming out to cheer them on.

And it wasn't much different in Syria under Assad, before the war started. Maybe less up front, but just as vicious.

And gays are still being victimised and killed in the refugee camps.

And raped. Yep, that's right. He's gay, let's rape him !! That will teach the bugger what we think of his disgusting gay behaviour.

[cronus]

Right through the Middle East, gays are being killed and victimised.
In ISIS controlled parts of Syria, they have been taking suspected gays to the top of tall buildings and throwing them off.
And the "opressed" local population have been coming out to cheer them on.

And it wasn't much different in Syria under Assad, before the war started. Maybe less up front, but just as vicious.

And gays are still being victimised and killed in the refugee camps.

And raped. Yep, that's right. He's gay, let's rape him !! That will teach the bugger what we think of his disgusting gay behaviour.

Tell that to a left-liberal and they'll say it's worse in the West, albeit I ain't heard of the mass execution of gays around here...

[NineBerry]

There are reports that the attacker has been using gay dating apps and has been a regular visitor to the attacked club for some time. Possibly for scouting reasons to find his target and get all details for planning. But then on the other hand, people report that he has been getting drunk and aggressive towards other people inside the club multiple times. One would expect that is something you do not do when scouting a location? Or was that a trick to find out how good security is?

[pErvinalia]

C'mon. The guy was probably gay and hated himself for it desperately. He was using the gay dating app for over two years.