Libertarianism

[Clinton Huxley]

We don't depend on government, we create the government. The government works for us.

If only they thought so too...

Unfortunately, the way things have developed, the electorate are viewed now as voting fodder and are largely ignored between elections. The two main parties and the Lib Dems draw their candidates from the same little pool and all these nasty little fish swim around in the Wesminster bubble. If fish can swim in bubbles. That's not the key point.

It's our own fault, though. We tolerate it.

[JimC]

We don't depend on government, we create the government. The government works for us.

If only they thought so too...

Unfortunately, the way things have developed, the electorate are viewed now as voting fodder and are largely ignored between elections. The two main parties and the Lib Dems draw their candidates from the same little pool and all these nasty little fish swim around in the Wesminster bubble. If fish can swim in bubbles. That's not the key point.

It's our own fault, though. We tolerate it.

Quite similar in Oz; an incompetent Labour Party and a sleazy, opportunist Liberal Party; a pox on both their houses...

[MrJonno]

Government obviously doesn't just include elected (or non-elected) politicans it includes the millions of civil servants and other public sector workers that allow society to function. If anything the government and the people are so closely integrated most the time you might as well be talking about the same thing

[Clinton Huxley]

Government obviously doesn't just include elected (or non-elected) politicans it includes the millions of civil servants and other public sector workers that allow society to function. If anything the government and the people are so closely integrated most the time you might as well be talking about the same thing

The civil service exists to try to stop the politicians buggering things up too much...

[Mysturji]

Government obviously doesn't just include elected (or non-elected) politicans it includes the millions of civil servants and other public sector workers that allow society to function. If anything the government and the people are so closely integrated most the time you might as well be talking about the same thing

Life must be interesting on your planet.

[Drewish]

Government obviously doesn't just include elected (or non-elected) politicans it includes the millions of civil servants and other public sector workers that allow society to function. If anything the government and the people are so closely integrated most the time you might as well be talking about the same thing

Then I support the wholesale slaughter of Palestine, North Korea, Pakistan...

[Coito ergo sum]

Government obviously doesn't just include elected (or non-elected) politicans it includes the millions of civil servants and other public sector workers that allow society to function. If anything the government and the people are so closely integrated most the time you might as well be talking about the same thing

The civil service exists to try to stop the politicians buggering things up too much...

By the looks of our Tax Assessor, Building Department and Division of Motor Vehicles, the civil service in the US exists to take coffee breaks and to test how slowly tasks can be completed without actually grinding completely to a halt.

[Seth]

What keeps you alive is the competent, well-formed adult personalities of the 99.99999% of humans you encounter every day

One day I might meet such a person, human being are dangerous animals 100% of them and strict control is what allows any of us to have the modern quality of life that we have

Go take your meds.

[Wandering Through]

I'm glad this thread was resurrected. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and have bookmarked it for future reference.

:sniff:

I am still enjoying the thread. It has addressed some of the concerns I've had since my relatively recent "deconversion" from Christianity. Namely, since I no longer believe in a god, what about those "God-given" rights I've held as sacrosanct for pretty much all of my life. No god = no rights?? Were those damned commies right all along? I realize that a lot of the philosophy that's been referenced here probably seems elementary to most of you, but not everyone is as erudite as the average Rat, and I'm new around these parts. I've been meaning to read Hume, Locke, Paine, etc. but I've been too busy*.

If someone wants to come up with form libertarianism that doesn't rely on a person being born with natural rights then there is a conversation to be had. Anyone who starts with that believe really has no basis in reality to form any sensible view of politics.

Rights are created by people (with the word created being the important one) and are implemented via government, no government no rights

I would have zero moral problems in robbing someone house if that was the only way I could get enough food to eat (no I'm not going to ask as if I'm told no it making robbing the house a lot harder), luckily we have a safety net so that possibility should never happen. Without such a safety net I don't think there is a moral case for locking that person up

MrJonno,

I find your apparent position mind-boggling. I don't mean that as a judgment, I really can't get my mind around the concept of believing my right to life and/or liberty is derived only through the consent of a government. A government which is necessarily composed of people who would have no more claim to natural rights than I. And who, therefore, grant themselves their own rights, while I cannot?? Hardly seems sporting to me. If your rights are granted exclusively by the government, would it not naturally follow that in the event the government decided the nation was overpopulated and there was to be a lottery to determine which fifth of the population would be exterminated to relieve this condition, no one would have any standing to complain? After all, none of you have an inherent right to life if the government says you do not. And as I typed that sentence, it occurs to me this has been done over and over again, particularly in the last century. Surely these atrocities show we cannot accept the idea that rights are derived only through the consent of government?

I apologize if I misrepresent your position, and I hope you won't take this as an attack, I really want to understand where you are coming from. While I probably don't have the philosophical chops to claim full comprehension of the libertarian arguments that have been presented, I feel like I can agree with them because they make sense to me (doubtlessly in no small part because they square with my preconceived biases). Your position on the other hand is currently utterly incomprehensible to me. I guess I am asking from where you derive your philosophy so I can try to get a better grasp on it (if for no other reason than to understand how someone could arrive at the notion that they have no inherent value other than that assigned to them by the state).


*I debated typing lazy, which is more to the point, but why lay all my cards on the table.


[EDIT] When I typed "this has been done over and over again, particularly in the last century", I did not, obviously, mean a literal lottery was held. Only that governments engaged in systematic exterminations of "undesired populations".

[Twoflower]

Realized today while skyping with my parents that my dad is a libertarian, no wonder my political views are a mix of liberal and libertarian.

[Drewish]

DRUNKEN PHILOSOPHY MODE ENGAGE!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Realized today while skyping with my parents that my dad is a libertarian, no wonder my political views are a mix of liberal and libertarian.

Shoot him when you get home. It's the only kind thing to do.

[Twoflower]

Realized today while skyping with my parents that my dad is a libertarian, no wonder my political views are a mix of liberal and libertarian.

Shoot him when you get home. It's the only kind thing to do.

Why? I see nothing wrong with being a libertarian.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Realized today while skyping with my parents that my dad is a libertarian, no wonder my political views are a mix of liberal and libertarian.

Shoot him when you get home. It's the only kind thing to do.

Why? I see nothing wrong with being a libertarian.

[Seth]

I find your apparent position mind-boggling. I don't mean that as a judgment, I really can't get my mind around the concept of believing my right to life and/or liberty is derived only through the consent of a government. A government which is necessarily composed of people who would have no more claim to natural rights than I. And who, therefore, grant themselves their own rights, while I cannot?? Hardly seems sporting to me. If your rights are granted exclusively by the government, would it not naturally follow that in the event the government decided the nation was overpopulated and there was to be a lottery to determine which fifth of the population would be exterminated to relieve this condition, no one would have any standing to complain? After all, none of you have an inherent right to life if the government says you do not. And as I typed that sentence, it occurs to me this has been done over and over again, particularly in the last century. Surely these atrocities show we cannot accept the idea that rights are derived only through the consent of government?

That's the cognitive disconnect of the collectivist mind. It cannot reason logically and sees the collective as having some power that is greater than the sum of its parts. Collectivists like Mr. Jonno look at government as some organic being that exists independent of the individuals who make it up, and they think that this vaguely conceived organism is somehow better, more ethical, more caring and more concerned about the individual in the collective than in the agenda of the collective as a whole. They expect government to care about taking care of THEM, and that it is some sort of nearly-omnipotent and omnibenevolent god-like being that exists solely to serve their personal needs and concerns.

They cannot think or argue in the abstract about the philosophy and actual operation of governments throughout history, because this causes cognitive dissonance and discomfort when they are forced to address the simple fact that government is people, and people in government have a vested self-interest in aggregating, securing and perpetuating THEIR personal power and interests, and that therefore government is the enemy of liberty and freedom and is inherently evil. It's a necessary evil to be sure, but it's like fire, to be used wisely, as little as possible and only as absolutely necessary, and it's a terrifying thing when it rages out of control.

And the more collectivist and less individualist the government and laws, the more likely it is to disregard and disrespect the rights and needs of the individual in favor of the aggregation and securing of power by the elite, and secondarily securing the interests of the collective irrespective of the impact on the individual.

And once the pogroms and purges begin, they are very hard to stop, and the only savior for the people themselves are the arms that they have or can find to use to fight the tyrannical despotism that is unconstrained government.

How many populations, how many millions of people have to be sent to gulags and shot in the neck and dumped in ditches by despotic socialist/communist regimes before idiot collectivists come to understand the tiger whose tail they are holding between pinched index finger and thumb, and how easily the government that they trust can and will turn on them and kill them without mercy or thought?

Evidently, to Mr Jonno, millions more are an acceptable loss if it reduces his paranoid panic at the thought of other people exercising liberty. It would be sad if it weren't such a widespread pathology that's so very dangerous to free people. As it stands, his sort of attitudes are extremely dangerous to the rest of us who wish to maintain our liberty.