Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[MattShizzle]

Socialists and Communists want fairness. Libertarians and Conservatives want a return to Feudalism. Success is entirely due to luck, and nobody should make more just because they were lucky. Everyone should get the same. If anyone has any more than anyone else something is wrong.

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism. Rule by the worker quickly became rule by the privileged communist elite.

There's never actually been a Communist country, just ones that used the name.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism.

Ohio.

[Ian]

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism.

Ohio.

Michigan.

[Svartalf]

and even among those, Neither East Germany nor PRC developed into feudal states... and many others were "feudal" only insofar as they were vassal states to the USSR.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism.

Ohio.

Mount Pleasant, Michigan.

[Coito ergo sum]

Socialists and Communists want fairness. Libertarians and Conservatives want a return to Feudalism. Success is entirely due to luck, and nobody should make more just because they were lucky. Everyone should get the same. If anyone has any more than anyone else something is wrong.

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism. Rule by the worker quickly became rule by the privileged communist elite.

There's never actually been a Communist country, just ones that used the name.

By that standard, there has never been a capitalist country either.

[Coito ergo sum]

Socialists and Communists want fairness. Libertarians and Conservatives want a return to Feudalism. Success is entirely due to luck, and nobody should make more just because they were lucky. Everyone should get the same. If anyone has any more than anyone else something is wrong.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Feudalism is neither libertarian nor capitalist. Under Feudalism, success was only due to luck, because you were either born a serf or property owner or an aristocrat. Libertarianism and capitalism are worlds away from feudalism.

Success is plainly not entirely due to luck, but the whole "luck vs. sweat" dichotomy is irrelevant anyway.

Libertarianism means that people are at liberty to do as they please, except where their exercise of that liberty interferes with someone else's right or injures someone else. That's the basic principle, anyway. Feudalism means that God appoints certain people to be Lords and Kings, and the rest of the folks are duty bound to follow their orders.

Capitalism is where property and the means of production are primarily held by individuals and private associations of individuals. Feudalism is where property and the means of production are held entirely by the State.

The basic idea of capitalism is embodied in the proverbial lemonade stand. A 12 year old goes to store and buys some lemons and suger for $10, and sets up a table in her parents' driveway. With that investment of $10 in "capital", the 12 year old offers lemonade for sale to the public at 50 cents per glass. If the 12 year old sells 40 glasses of lemonade, he or she has recouped the $10 investment and made $10. Let's say the tax rate is 25%, and the 12 year old pays it, leaving $7.50 cents.

Capitalism and libertarianism says that's o.k. and the 12 year old keeps the $7.50. You think the neighbor kid who opened a lemonade stand and made crappy lemonade that nobody wanted should be paid just as much as the 12 year old who made the $10 profit. You don't, however, specify who is supposed to pay that. Can you please clarify who is supposed to pay the neighbor kid?

In your world, are lemonade stands illegal? Does everyone chip in their lemonade stand profits into the collective till and then it's doled out equally to everyone? If so, why would the 12 year old bother to risk her $10 and try to sell lemonade?

Also - any comment on my response to your question? http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1001700

[Rum]

Socialists and Communists want fairness. Libertarians and Conservatives want a return to Feudalism. Success is entirely due to luck, and nobody should make more just because they were lucky. Everyone should get the same. If anyone has any more than anyone else something is wrong.

Name a Communist country that hasn't devolved into feudalism. Rule by the worker quickly became rule by the privileged communist elite.

There's never actually been a Communist country, just ones that used the name.

Devolved into feudalism?

Marx postulated stages of social and political development. Feudalism, he saw as a precursor to capitalism which in turn would eventually collapse due to its own internal contradictions (we may well be seeing some of those right now), until eventually an advanced rational and cooperative social order was achieved - a sort of pinnacle of human society. The socialist states which followed Marx's ideas were very well aware of his political ideas of course and the notion that they were in a state of transition towards some communist ideal at some point in the future was central to them. This of course left them plenty of room for oppression and expediency, hubris and personal ambition.

The Marxist model is of course deeply flawed, partly because as with so many thinkers of the 19th century, he thought there was a human narrative to be had in our affairs, whereas random happenstance, massive and unpredictable social movements led by charismatic leaders or religious ideas and happenstance appear to be equally large influences. It was also very European at its core. I say that as a lifelong socialist.

[MattShizzle]

Well, with unfettered Capitalism there is in fact a form of feudalism - as the wealthy and their families stay wealthy and own everything and it is very difficult for others to gain wealth so they are effectively the "serfs."

[Jason]

How is that Feudalism? Sounds more like Serfdom to me.

[sandinista]

Is this guy for real?

It's a matter of forum balance. There needed to be a counterweight to Gawd, sandinista and Exi5stentialist, and Seth got elected. IMO, he does an excellent job.

counterweight to what? What are you even talking about? Who's your "counterweight"? If anything, politically, I'm more your "counterweight". From what I've read, I disagree with you more than seth.

Absolutists of whatever stripe do have a lot in common...

Mainly an inability to see shades of gray...

You calling someone an absolutist!! thanks for the laugh, ridiculous. Foot in mouth disease much?

[Rum]

Well, with unfettered Capitalism there is in fact a form of feudalism - as the wealthy and their families stay wealthy and own everything and it is very difficult for others to gain wealth so they are effectively the "serfs."

Well these are actually technical terms with a real 'definition'. The language is free of course and you can say anything you like, but if you want to find common ground for discussion purposes it is useful to be able to agree on common meanings. A 'serf' means, generally something specific, as does 'feudalism'. They have a different meaning to say - 'victim of capitalism'.

[sandinista]

Is this guy for real?

It's a matter of forum balance. There needed to be a counterweight to Gawd, sandinista and Exi5stentialist, and Seth got elected. IMO, he does an excellent job.

counterweight to what? What are you even talking about? Who's your "counterweight"? If anything, politically, I'm more your "counterweight". From what I've read, I disagree with you more than seth.

Absolutists of whatever stripe do have a lot in common...

Mainly an inability to see shades of gray...

A song from Johnny Cash...

oh, yah, I should add, since you apparently think song lyrics prove a point

you remind me of this

A song from Phil Ochs...

"there are various shades of political opinion, one of the shadiest of these is the liberals"

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Jason]