America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

[sandinista]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

I find them both to be the same; outdated, superstitious, ignorant and dangerous. As for air forces not being used for religious purposes, that I am not so sure of.

[Gawd]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

Well lah di dah, Coito! I guess you are against all those revolutions going on in the "Muslim world" right now against the atheist dictators that rule them and whom rail against "Muslims" for causing the uprisings. And I also guess you are staunchly against the Jews-supreme-government thing of Israel.

And the hideous acts of barbaric Christians are not just in the past like you oh so like to paint Americans & the "Christian world". History has shown from the Middle Ages till now that Christians are barbarians that know no bounds. The many wars in Africa are a direct result of Christians destroying the societal fabric down there and replacing it with barbaric holier than thou attitudes.

[sandinista]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

Well lah di dah, Coito! I guess you are against all those revolutions going on in the "Muslim world" right now against the atheist dictators that rule them and whom rail against "Muslims" for causing the uprisings. And I also guess you are staunchly against the Jews-supreme-government thing of Israel.

And the hideous acts of barbaric Christians are not just in the past like you oh so like to paint Americans & the "Christian world". History has shown from the Middle Ages till now that Christians are barbarians that know no bounds. The many wars in Africa are a direct result of Christians destroying the societal fabric down there and replacing it with barbaric holier than thou attitudes.

It truly is a triumph of propaganda that people believe that christian crimes are a thing of the past and now christianity is "liberalized".

[JimC]

CES wrote:

And, I think it's arguable that Muslims TODAY are worse than Christians, by and large. Certainly, there is nothing INHERENTLY worse about it -both have horrid books that recount atrocities with glee, and applaud discrimination, misogyny, homophobia, and hatred of foreigners and unbelievers. However, in the real world of today, Islam is putting it into practice in a much more vigorous way, whereas Christianity has to a large extent been liberalized and de-fanged. I think that if Christians succeed in regaining the kind of power that Muslim theocrats now have, they would act in much the same way. I have no illusions about that.

A perfectly reasonable argument. Christianity certainly was as appalling as Islam is now, in the days when it was truly a major player, but thanks to the courage of many, in a long drawn out process of the enlightenment, it was forced back in its box to a reasonable degree. It didn't choose to, it was dragged kicking and screaming away from its original power over everbody in a christian society. There are those both in the catholic hierarchy and in the fundy movement in the US who would love some aspects of those days to return...

[Seth]

I also don't know how we can say the attack probably wouldn't have come at all. Generally, you don't point a gun at someone and cock it if you're not going to fire.

Actually it happens all the time. They're called "military exercises". You know, like the joint U.S.-South Korean naval exercises that put them in a good position to blockade North Korea and destroy much of their navy.

Do you know one of the prime motives for invading Iraq the second time, that nobody wants to talk about?

It was to scare the pants off of North Korea with a show of force. Recall that at the time, they were blustering about nuclear weapons and attacking the South.

[Seth]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

What "priests assisting in genocide thing" are you referring to, pray tell?

[Seth]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

Well lah di dah, Coito! I guess you are against all those revolutions going on in the "Muslim world" right now against the atheist dictators that rule them and whom rail against "Muslims" for causing the uprisings. And I also guess you are staunchly against the Jews-supreme-government thing of Israel.

And the hideous acts of barbaric Christians are not just in the past like you oh so like to paint Americans & the "Christian world". History has shown from the Middle Ages till now that Christians are barbarians that know no bounds. The many wars in Africa are a direct result of Christians destroying the societal fabric down there and replacing it with barbaric holier than thou attitudes.

Actually, the problem in Africa isn't with Christians, it's with ignorant African barbarians and their tribal conflicts, which have been going on for many tens of thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Rawandan genocide had nothing whatever to do with Christians, it was a genocide born out of an ancient, ignorant barbaric tribal conflict, and the ignorant savages in Rawanda had no problem chopping the arms off of men, women and children merely because they were of a different tribe. And then there's the Congo, and the institutionalize tribally-based rape that also has nothing whatever to do with Christianity.

Your characterization of Christianity is as ignorant and barbaric as the savages in Rawanda or Zimbabwe or any of a dozen other festering cesspools of ignorant savage tribal barbarity in Africa.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

What "priests assisting in genocide thing" are you referring to, pray tell?

Rwanda.

[Seth]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

What "priests assisting in genocide thing" are you referring to, pray tell?

Rwanda.

I wondered why my spell-checker kept nudging me...

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

Well lah di dah, Coito! I guess you are against all those revolutions going on in the "Muslim world" right now against the atheist dictators that rule them and whom rail against "Muslims" for causing the uprisings. And I also guess you are staunchly against the Jews-supreme-government thing of Israel.

I am not for or against the revolutions, actually. I am only "for" the individual rights of people living in those lands, and am against dictators and theocrats. None of the dictators at issue is an atheist.

I am for the separation of temple and state as much as I am against the separation of church and state. However, I will not require the Israelis to be a secular government until the surrounding Muslim countries commit to do the same. Until Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc., separate mosque and state, then I don't care much that Israel does it to.

You may be "Israel first" on these issues - but I'm not. I don't trust the Muslims to secularize their governments at all.

And the hideous acts of barbaric Christians are not just in the past like you oh so like to paint Americans & the "Christian world". History has shown from the Middle Ages till now that Christians are barbarians that know no bounds. The many wars in Africa are a direct result of Christians destroying the societal fabric down there and replacing it with barbaric holier than thou attitudes.

I didn't say they were just in the past, now did I. The Muslims are just worse.

If you want to go back to the middle ages, you'll find that Islam was the instigator of it all. They raged out of Arabia and conquered the middle east. Islam has no "right" to those lands superior to any other religion. No religion has a right to be there that is superior to any other. Islam swept out of Arabia, and all across north Africa, killing and maiming as they went. They burned the Christian cities to the ground, raped their women, murdered their sons and fathers and brothers and forced conversions to the hideous religion you champion.

Not content with Arabia, the Middle East, and Africa, the Muslim barbarians swept into Bulgaria, Greece, Crete and other Mediterenean Islands, they conquered Sicily and part of the boot of Italy They swept into Spain. And eventually they stabbed their bloody swords into France, and they pushed up the Balkans through Hungary and into Austria. They made it to the gates of Vienna.

Luckily, the bold action by certain strong western rulers fought the Muslim hordes back. Men like Charles "The Hammer" Martel won glorious victories at places like Tours in France, sending the Muslims back reeling on their heels. Unfortunately, it would take centuries to expel the beasts from Spain and Sicily and other areas, and even to this day they hold once Christian lands of north Africa.

They were beaten back to Turkey, and have been for centuries now kept out of Europe, save some footholds across the Bosphorous and in places like Kosovo.

From 1453 to 1918, the Ottoman Empire held the middle east and north Africa by a the neck, and finally the dying carcass of the Ottoman Turks fell apart after World War 1. Since then middle east Muslim countries have been broken up into the pieces we see today. And, like monster that reconstitutes itself or a Phoenix rising from its own ashes, the specter of Islam grows and festers.

it's like Sauron in the Lord of the Rings. You defeat it once, and its evil starts to gather again, and slowly over time it reforms and reconstitutes. Ever watchful. Ever waiting. Growing. Until it gains the strength to strike. And, it is at that time - and that time has come - the men of the West must unite to stand against the evil of Mordor - Muslimdor! We will have to take the forces of the West to the Black Gate of Islam and risk all against the Darkness.

"Sons of Gondor! Of Rohan! My brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!" - Aragorn

"If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end, as to be worthy of remembrance." - Theoden of Rohan.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, if you find Christianity worse, or them both the same, that's fine. I'm mostly concerned with the stoning, and the hanging and the theocracy-in-government thing. I don't find that the religions have as much power in the west as they do in the unfortunately and inaccurately named "Muslim world." The west has air forces, but we're generally not using them for religious purposes.

The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for in Africa. The whole "priests assisting in genocide" thing - typical cowardice of the priesthood. I don't trust priests. Every time I meet a Catholic priest I get the impression that they are selling something they know to be a fraud. They are shifty.

What "priests assisting in genocide thing" are you referring to, pray tell?

Rwanda.

I wondered why my spell-checker kept nudging me...

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[sandinista]

I didn't say they were just in the past, now did I. The Muslims are just worse.

[Coito ergo sum]

I didn't say they were just in the past, now did I. The Muslims are just worse.

What are you talking about? It's plainly obvious that Islam, qua religion, is a far greater scourge than Christianity. Today, that is. Historically that may not have been the case. However, Islam is a threat to western society and culture in general, is much more repressive to women than Christianity is, is much more repressive to homosexuals, is much more belligerent and wields far more political power in the countries where it holds sway. Most western countries are more or less secular governments. The modern theocracies are primarily Muslim.

Where you go wrong is considering everything a western country does a function of Christianity. It isn't. I'm comparing religion to religion, not country to country.

[sandinista]

I didn't say they were just in the past, now did I. The Muslims are just worse.

What are you talking about? It's plainly obvious that Islam, qua religion, is a far greater scourge than Christianity. Today, that is. Historically that may not have been the case. However, Islam is a threat to western society and culture in general, is much more repressive to women than Christianity is, is much more repressive to homosexuals, is much more belligerent and wields far more political power in the countries where it holds sway. Most western countries are more or less secular governments. The modern theocracies are primarily Muslim.

Where you go wrong is considering everything a western country does a function of Christianity. It isn't. I'm comparing religion to religion, not country to country.

I guess when the US, or canaduh for that matter, have an atheist great leader I may believe you.