The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Galaxian » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:49 pm

Forty Two wrote:As I mentioned, these cases can involve both people telling what they thing is the truth, but neither person being completely accurate. That's the thing about eyewitness testimony and memories. They are notoriously unreliable, and they become more unreliable with the passage of time.

If she's telling the truth, she had the drink, and he immediately asked or told her to kiss him, and she did, and they immediately proceeded to have sex. Rohypnol doesn't work that fast, as I noted it takes time for the drug to kick in, and even more to peak. As she described it, he said for her to "finish your drink..." which she did, and they proceeded then to become intimate.

How the story benefits her or doesn't benefit her is not the issue. The issue is the evidence. It's no different than a guy who says that he was in the pub 10 years ago and a drunken Brad Pitt punched him in the nose and kicked him in the nuts, sending him to the floor writhing in pain, and threatened to kill him if he told the cops. Certainly a serious allegation - felony assault and battery and extortion. Why didn't you go to the police 10 years ago? Oh, I was embarrassed, and I really liked Brad Pitt at the time - I blamed myself, because I was acting like a tool in the pub at the time. Now, though, I think he needs to be exposed. What the authorities do with it, well, that's up to them.
And of course, "the authorities" need such cases to keep their coffers full, and to go through the motions of "serving Just-Us". It has always been thus, it is thus, and will be thus for another couple of decades. Pity is, the suckers fall for it, but bugger the kids who are bombed to bits :drunk:
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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Rum » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:50 pm

How exactly does this 'keep the coffers full'?

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Forty Two wrote:As I mentioned, these cases can involve both people telling what they thing is the truth, but neither person being completely accurate. That's the thing about eyewitness testimony and memories. They are notoriously unreliable, and they become more unreliable with the passage of time.

If she's telling the truth, she had the drink, and he immediately asked or told her to kiss him, and she did, and they immediately proceeded to have sex. Rohypnol doesn't work that fast, as I noted it takes time for the drug to kick in, and even more to peak. As she described it, he said for her to "finish your drink..." which she did, and they proceeded then to become intimate.

How the story benefits her or doesn't benefit her is not the issue. The issue is the evidence. It's no different than a guy who says that he was in the pub 10 years ago and a drunken Brad Pitt punched him in the nose and kicked him in the nuts, sending him to the floor writhing in pain, and threatened to kill him if he told the cops. Certainly a serious allegation - felony assault and battery and extortion. Why didn't you go to the police 10 years ago? Oh, I was embarrassed, and I really liked Brad Pitt at the time - I blamed myself, because I was acting like a tool in the pub at the time. Now, though, I think he needs to be exposed. What the authorities do with it, well, that's up to them.
Your recall of the timeline described by Prince is incorrect.
“I had a high tolerance, but that week I was working and had decided not to drink,” Prince said. “But I decided to have that one drink that night. It wasn’t strong; it tasted mostly like soda.” After 20 minutes of superficial conversation, Prince claims Blaine asked to show her something in the adjacent bedroom.

[source]

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by JimC » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:15 pm

Forty Two wrote:

...It's no different than a guy who says that he was in the pub 10 years ago and a drunken Brad Pitt punched him in the nose and kicked him in the nuts, sending him to the floor writhing in pain, and threatened to kill him if he told the cops. Certainly a serious allegation - felony assault and battery and extortion. Why didn't you go to the police 10 years ago? Oh, I was embarrassed, and I really liked Brad Pitt at the time - I blamed myself, because I was acting like a tool in the pub at the time. Now, though, I think he needs to be exposed. What the authorities do with it, well, that's up to them...
Not a good analogy to most cases of sexual harassment or rape that are brought up years later. In the case of children, they are often threatened with horrible things if they tell, and in the cases where they try to tell, they (in the past at least) were often disbelieved - this has happened time and time again...

In the case of young women in the workplace (including aspiring actresses), they, at the time, were typically fearful that blowing the whistle would put an end to their career; there are plenty of examples of those who have tried to complain in the past being harshly dealt with. Powerful men in any given industry are not easy opponents...
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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:30 pm

A more apt version of the analogy would be something like; 10 years ago Brad Pitt bought me some drinks in a hotel bar and persuaded me to go up to his hotel room to talk about my aspiring career as an actress. He seemed like a nice, reasonable sort of guy, but once the door was looked he started to lay it on about how, if I wanted to get ahead in the business, I had to let him punch me in the nose. I really wasn't sure about letting him do that and was telling him that I didn't feel comfortable with that whe all of a sudden he just whacked me really hard in the face, and afterwards, as I was crying on the carpet, he stood over me with his fists clenched and said that if I went to the cops nobody would believe me, that he was a powerful man and one word from him and I'd never get a job in the movies, not even emptying the bins. Then he gave me $50 for a taxi and shoved me out of the room.
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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by rachelbean » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:56 am

mistermack wrote:His big mistake was admitting that he'd paid some. He should have just denied it.
Yeah, that was his mistake, not the assaulting of women. God, your mind is fucking gross.
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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by mistermack » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:02 am

rachelbean wrote:
mistermack wrote:His big mistake was admitting that he'd paid some. He should have just denied it.
Yeah, that was his mistake, not the assaulting of women. God, your mind is fucking gross.
I don't feel the need to state the obvious. I leave that to those who like to make themselves feel righteous.
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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Forty Two » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:04 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Forty Two wrote:As I mentioned, these cases can involve both people telling what they thing is the truth, but neither person being completely accurate. That's the thing about eyewitness testimony and memories. They are notoriously unreliable, and they become more unreliable with the passage of time.

If she's telling the truth, she had the drink, and he immediately asked or told her to kiss him, and she did, and they immediately proceeded to have sex. Rohypnol doesn't work that fast, as I noted it takes time for the drug to kick in, and even more to peak. As she described it, he said for her to "finish your drink..." which she did, and they proceeded then to become intimate.

How the story benefits her or doesn't benefit her is not the issue. The issue is the evidence. It's no different than a guy who says that he was in the pub 10 years ago and a drunken Brad Pitt punched him in the nose and kicked him in the nuts, sending him to the floor writhing in pain, and threatened to kill him if he told the cops. Certainly a serious allegation - felony assault and battery and extortion. Why didn't you go to the police 10 years ago? Oh, I was embarrassed, and I really liked Brad Pitt at the time - I blamed myself, because I was acting like a tool in the pub at the time. Now, though, I think he needs to be exposed. What the authorities do with it, well, that's up to them.
Your recall of the timeline described by Prince is incorrect.
“I had a high tolerance, but that week I was working and had decided not to drink,” Prince said. “But I decided to have that one drink that night. It wasn’t strong; it tasted mostly like soda.” After 20 minutes of superficial conversation, Prince claims Blaine asked to show her something in the adjacent bedroom.

[source]
That doesn't conflict with my timeline. They go into the bedroom, she still has the drink, and he tells her to finish it. So, she hadn't consumed it all. Lots of drinks that don't taste strong are nevertheless strong.

And, my main point here is that we have recollections that are many years old. What are we supposed to do with this now? You had a high tolerance? Decided not to drink, but then drank. Then had sex. Didn't think it was rape at the time. There were people there who could have been witnesses, but their memories will now be old, if they even remember the evening in question, or if they can be located at all.

That's no different than in any other type of case. Memories fade. Memories change. Testimony about whether the traffic light was red, yellow or green is notoriously unreliable. So too is the testimony of someone who says they didn't drink that week, or only had one drink.

That isn't to say she's not "telling the truth." It's a recognition of the reality of proving a criminal case.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Forty Two » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:08 pm

JimC wrote:
Forty Two wrote:

...It's no different than a guy who says that he was in the pub 10 years ago and a drunken Brad Pitt punched him in the nose and kicked him in the nuts, sending him to the floor writhing in pain, and threatened to kill him if he told the cops. Certainly a serious allegation - felony assault and battery and extortion. Why didn't you go to the police 10 years ago? Oh, I was embarrassed, and I really liked Brad Pitt at the time - I blamed myself, because I was acting like a tool in the pub at the time. Now, though, I think he needs to be exposed. What the authorities do with it, well, that's up to them...
Not a good analogy to most cases of sexual harassment or rape that are brought up years later. In the case of children, they are often threatened with horrible things if they tell, and in the cases where they try to tell, they (in the past at least) were often disbelieved - this has happened time and time again...

In the case of young women in the workplace (including aspiring actresses), they, at the time, were typically fearful that blowing the whistle would put an end to their career; there are plenty of examples of those who have tried to complain in the past being harshly dealt with. Powerful men in any given industry are not easy opponents...
Indeed, all good points. However, in the case of any accusation of wrongful conduct, we are left with the reality that guilt must be determined based on the evidence. Luckily in the Weinstein case, he has admitted to lecherous behavior and apologized, so we can rely on his admissions against interest. However, in the case of Blaine's accuser, we are in a tough situation. Both may well be telling the truth, and neither may be accurate in their recollection. And, their own perceptions and recollections can change over time. That's the difficulty I'm trying to illustrate there.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Forty Two » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:19 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:A more apt version of the analogy would be something like; 10 years ago Brad Pitt bought me some drinks in a hotel bar and persuaded me to go up to his hotel room to talk about my aspiring career as an actress. He seemed like a nice, reasonable sort of guy, but once the door was looked he started to lay it on about how, if I wanted to get ahead in the business, I had to let him punch me in the nose. I really wasn't sure about letting him do that and was telling him that I didn't feel comfortable with that whe all of a sudden he just whacked me really hard in the face, and afterwards, as I was crying on the carpet, he stood over me with his fists clenched and said that if I went to the cops nobody would believe me, that he was a powerful man and one word from him and I'd never get a job in the movies, not even emptying the bins. Then he gave me $50 for a taxi and shoved me out of the room.
Certainly a fine analogy.

What are we to do with it if someone reports that to the media 10 years after the fact and says "I just think someone needs to expose Brad Pitt - what the authorities do with it [now that its 10 years later, memories are ten years old, and any witnesses that might have something to say are either gone or hard to find...] is their business..."?

Since it was published in the news, we'd pretty much be left to evaluate the story, and things that might come to mind include whether the accuser went to the police at the time, or went to a doctor at the time to have his/her face examined. Is there a medical report to at least corroborate that a facial injury occurred? Are their surveillance cameras to show that he or she was in the hotel where Brad Pitt was staying? Can we place Brad Pitt there at the time, or was he in Majorca at the time on holiday? What taxi company was used? Is there a receipt?

You know, the kinds of things police do when they look to corroborate someone's story. Only, now, if you ask those questions and suggest that such information is relevant, then you're victim blaming and looking for the "perfect victim."

Yes, your example is quite appropriate, and even better in that it is a more extreme example, yet it still makes my point. Am I supposed to trust that the accuser is accurately narrating the allegations about Pitt? Why? Is the accuser more trustworthy? Is the accuser's memory not prone to distortion or loss? Is the accuser's perception not open to question? Is the accuser's ability to narrate not imperfect?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Forty Two » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:27 pm

rachelbean wrote:
mistermack wrote:His big mistake was admitting that he'd paid some. He should have just denied it.
Yeah, that was his mistake, not the assaulting of women. God, your mind is fucking gross.
Assaulting women was not by mistake. He was an intentional harasser and assaulter, I think by his own admission. Although he denied the criminal items, he has admitted to some terrible stuff. Clearly, he's not a sympathetic figure, and he probably deserves what he's getting.

I think that a "best practices" policy in the Screen Actors Guild should be set up that would be against meeting in private residences, hotel rooms and other more personal rather than business-related locations. When women go to doctor's offices nowadays, they have a nurse in the room when the doctor is doing a lot of the examinations. It's a best practices policy to make sure that the doctor has a defense. The witness there operates as a check on doctors who might get grabby, and it also operates as a defense for an innocent doctor having a false accusation leveled or a misunderstanding being taken out of proportion.

I guess I can't imagine why a producer would need to meet the 23 year old sexy new actress in his hotel room, much less while he's showering and dressing. Even if that was done innocently, I would think it odd and unnecessarily risky.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Forty Two » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:47 pm

Lynch Harvey, sure, but some of the articles going around are suggesting culpability for actors who "knew" about some of Weinstein's behavior. http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/23/m ... h-paltrow/

Hearing rumors is not "knowing." And, Damon and Clooney here are suggesting that in their experience Weinstein was a bully and an asshole to everyone. They heard he was a "womanizer" and Weinstein bragged about sexual conquests.

What, really, were Damon and Clooney supposed to do? Expose rumors about Weinstein, including the names of women he supposedly bragged about? Quit their jobs? Not work with an "asshole" because rumors circulated about him?

If you read the tabloids at the supermarket checkout line, it's pretty clear that in Hollywood, if everyone got what they deserved, there wouldn't be many left in Hollywood.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Forty Two wrote:If you read the tabloids at the supermarket checkout line, it's pretty clear that in Hollywood, if everyone got what they deserved, there wouldn't be many left in Hollywood.
If people believe what they read in supermarket tabloids, they're credulous blockheads.

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:41 pm

Forty Two wrote:That isn't to say she's not "telling the truth." It's a recognition of the reality of proving a criminal case.
Great, so we're agreed that for all we know Prince was drugged and raped, but proving that in a criminal court is problematic.

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Re: The lynching of Harvey Weinstein

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:48 pm

mistermack wrote:
rachelbean wrote:
mistermack wrote:His big mistake was admitting that he'd paid some. He should have just denied it.
Yeah, that was his mistake, not the assaulting of women. God, your mind is fucking gross.
I don't feel the need to state the obvious. I leave that to those who like to make themselves feel righteous.
There are plenty about. And good luck to them.
Are you wishing serial abusers and sexual predators good luck there?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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