Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by maiforpeace » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:09 am

Crumple wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17492445

Trayvon Martin: Obama says teenager's death a tragedy

US President Barack Obama has said the "tragedy" of an unarmed black teenager shot dead in Florida should prompt some national soul-searching.

The death of Trayvon Martin, 17, gunned down by a neighbourhood watchman, who was not charged as he claimed self-defence, has sparked outrage.

"If I had a son he would look like Trayvon," President Obama told reporters at the White House.

(continued, obviously not thinking this through considering the health of the kid right now?) :smoke:
klr posted that a few posts back. Indeed, it's all over the national news.

And... PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS SPOKEN on the subject. :prof:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Tyrannical » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:47 am

Image

The New Black Panthers are trying to stir up some trouble too. I'm thinking there may be a chance for some full blown riots :thinks:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:35 am

maiforpeace wrote:And... PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS SPOKEN on the subject. :prof:
And Obama basically said he only cares because Martin looked like what Obama imagines his son would have looked like. That's not very encouraging for those of us who might hope for empathy for people of all races, not just those whose race matches that of the people in power.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by JimC » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 am

FBM wrote:@mistermack: Haven't you paid attention to the news? LOTS and LOTS of people are screaming at the tops of their lungs that the guy is guilty. :roll:

He should be held until a proper investigation is conducted, and everybody else, if they were wise, should suspend judgement on all parties involved, including the police and the American people in general (who constitute the juries), until all available and relevant evidence is collected and analyzed. Doing otherwise is sloppy reasoning.
"Held" should mean charged with murder...

Then the law can take its course...
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by maiforpeace » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:39 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Image

The New Black Panthers are trying to stir up some trouble too. I'm thinking there may be a chance for some full blown riots :thinks:
Someone poo pooed me when I suggested that.

That's what has me concerned. The recession has hit African Americans very hard (their unemployment stats are twice as high as their white counterparts) so there's some pissed off people out there ready to blow up.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:46 pm

14 pages on this, and no Seth? :shock:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by mistermack » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:01 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:14 pages on this, and no Seth? :shock:
I'll bet he's out all hours on neighbourhood watch duty, constantly stroking his weapon.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by maiforpeace » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:25 pm

mistermack wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:14 pages on this, and no Seth? :shock:
I'll bet he's out all hours on neighbourhood watch duty, constantly stroking his weapon.
He'll get arrested then, since masturbating in public (indecent exposure) probably IS illegal in Florida. :roll:

Where are our priorities. :smug:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:44 pm

No, the law is not to blame, the person who violated the law is to blame. Whether or not the shooter violated the law is a matter for a jury to determine.

Retreat-to-the-wall statutes are very bad public policy because they embolden criminals and disadvantage victims, who to avoid prosecution have to flee from an attack before using deadly force, which grossly disadvantages them in a kill or be killed situation where only seconds make the difference between life and death. Society must NEVER give criminals the advantage, or any consideration for their safety for that matter, and laws must always favor the right of the victim to instant and decisive self-defense, including deadly physical force, where there is a reasonable and imminent likelihood of death or serious bodily harm impending. Most people forget the "serious bodily harm" part of the self-defense authority, and they forget that getting punched in the head can result in being knocked unconscious, which can itself result in severe brain damage (or other permanent injuries like blindness), but can also leave one vulnerable to being kicked in the head, which can result in severe brain damage and/or death.

Therefore, someone attempting to punch you in the face is engaging in an attack that has a high probability of resulting in serious bodily harm or death, particularly if it's a bigger or stronger assailant against a smaller, weaker or older victim, can easily raise a reasonable belief that the use of deadly force in self-defense is necessary.

But, a "reasonable belief" one is in danger is not, as the story implies, based on what the individual alone thought at the moment he fired, it's based on a somewhat vague "reasonable person" standard that asks, "What would a reasonable person in the same situation have done?"

Just because the shooter felt he was in danger doesn't mean the law is obliged to accept his judgment on the matter. It's a matter for a jury.

However, all that being said, it gets far more complex because most self-defense laws only allow self-defense if you are not the one instigating the violence. Then again, if the shooter approached the black kid and began to question him and the black kid, rather than simply walking away or ignoring the shooter, got angry at being accosted by a white guy and attacked the shooter, then it may well be the case that the shooter had legal justification to shoot the black kid, notwithstanding the fact that the kid was unarmed. In that case, it would depend on the exact circumstances and comparative physical abilities of the two people involved. I can see a situation where a strapping and strong 17 year old youth could easily put an older, frail man in fear of death or serious bodily harm just using feet and fists...many is the person who has died or been brain damaged in a fist-fight or assault, which is sufficient harm to justify the use of deadly force. In such a case, notwithstanding that the shooter approached the black kid and asked him what he was doing, which is not in and of itself an illegal or threatening act, an attack by the kid would trigger both the right of self-defense and the right of no retreat-to-the-wall.

So, things are substantially more complex than just the notion that some racist asshole white guy gunned down an innocent black teenager.

And that's why it should go to the Grand Jury to see if an indictment is warranted, and then to trial if the Grand Jury finds probable cause. That's what Grand Juries are for.

The real travesty here was that the police department did not simply refer the case to the DA and let the DA put it before the Grand Jury to decide whether to charge the shooter or not. That definitely smacks of racism on the part of the police department, which is more of a worry than the law.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by maiforpeace » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Great post Seth. :tup:
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:54 pm

MrJonno wrote:Except what does probably cause mean?, 51% chance you did it, 99% , 1%.
I'm more than happy for someone to be arrested for say murder on a 10% chance they commited it on the basis of how serious the crime is. What % of homicides are considered to be justified in the US or anywhere else. I doubt it its more than a few % so on the balance of probabilities if you created a corpse you did it illegally. Thats all the probable cause you need
Nope. The standard of "probable cause" means "it is more likely than not that this particular person committed this particular crime." It's not a mathematical calculation, but it does require that the balance be tipped by the evidence in favor of the person detained having committed the crime alleged. Generally, police don't arrest on PC unless the balance is pretty clearly tipped that way because they don't want the case thrown out for an illegal arrest.

What the police do if it's an iffy determination is to stop and identify the suspect (which they are allowed to do based only on a "reasonable, articulable suspicion" rather than PC), gather any evidence that might be pertinent, and continue to investigate the case until they obtain PC to arrest someone. Then they go out and arrest the person they've identified as a suspect for whom they have PC.

An immediate arrest is neither necessary nor lawful if PC does not exist at the time of arrest, and if they DO arrest someone without PC, the entire case can be jeopardized and any evidence obtained as a result of that arrest can be excluded from trial, so they are generally very careful about obtaining PC FIRST, not after the fact, before an arrest. Which is exactly as it should be because everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:55 pm

maiforpeace wrote:Great post Seth. :tup:
Thanks. Been wrenching on motorcycles all week as the weather here is extremely fine for March and I want to ride.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by maiforpeace » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:00 pm

In regards to the 'law' part though...wouldn't you agree it's bit misplaced to arrest someone for indecent exposure, but not for killing someone? It could be a given you aren't going to jail them forever anyway - just like drunk driving, but if they might have been off their rocker when they shot the person, wouldn't it be worth it to hold them at least for observation?

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:43 pm

maiforpeace wrote:That's what has me concerned. The recession has hit African Americans very hard (their unemployment stats are twice as high as their white counterparts) so there's some pissed off people out there ready to blow up.
Indeed - and that could happen irrespective of whether Zimmerman was to blame. And some groups apparently want such a blow up: the New Black Panthers are offering a reward of $10,000 for the "capture" - i.e., kidnapping - of Zimmerman:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... 1157.story

By the way, for those who are worried about arrest versus detention, apparently Zimmerman was detained, or at least handcuffed:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/nation ... ion=recent

I can understand why police departments don't like to make their investigations public, but perhaps the mayor ought to have made details like the handcuffing and Zimmerman's injuries public earlier to head off the dilatory publicity from the press and other sources.
Last edited by Warren Dew on Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Seth wrote:The real travesty here was that the police department did not simply refer the case to the DA and let the DA put it before the Grand Jury to decide whether to charge the shooter or not.
Except I'm pretty sure that is exactly what they did. The Grand Jury hearing is scheduled for April 10, I believe.

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