America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Coito ergo sum]

For one thing, Jews are a race. (Hey, that Jewish ambiguity came in handy. What dah yah know?)

Race or religion, it doesn't matter. Israel has as much right to exist as a Jewish country as Lebanon had to be Christian (until it was CONQUERED by the fucking Muslims...), and Jordan has to be Islamic, and Syria Islamic, etc. Doesn't it? Why not? Other than the fact that it's Jewish, of course.

You don't give a fuck about people being driven from their homes, anyway - you only care about MUSLIMS being driven from their homes. You care not bit about Christians being slaughtered by the fucking monsters in Lebanon. Right? Fuck them! Right? Because everything in the middle east has been rightfully Muslim since the Muslims CONQUERED it. Yes? That's your position, isn't it?

Those are straw men to bring in those other countries and what they do. How does Lebanon driving away Christians make it alright for Jews to ethnically cleanse Arabs? And remember, Jews are a race and not a religion (mostly).

Jews aren't ethnically cleansing Arabs. The Arab population of Israel is increasing. And, the west bank is not being "cleansed" of Arabs....hmmm..... would twer.....

So fucking what - Jews are a religion or a race - I don't care what you call them. Arabs are a race - Muslims are a religion. They still drove out the Christians from Lebanon and slaughtered them. That's where a REAL ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY happened - not just in your fantasies, but in REALITY. In the real world - Lebanon was a Christian country with a majority Christian Arab population, and the fucking Muslims cleansed them right the fuck out.

[Gawd]

For one thing, Jews are a race. (Hey, that Jewish ambiguity came in handy. What dah yah know?)

Race or religion, it doesn't matter. Israel has as much right to exist as a Jewish country as Lebanon had to be Christian (until it was CONQUERED by the fucking Muslims...), and Jordan has to be Islamic, and Syria Islamic, etc. Doesn't it? Why not? Other than the fact that it's Jewish, of course.

You don't give a fuck about people being driven from their homes, anyway - you only care about MUSLIMS being driven from their homes. You care not bit about Christians being slaughtered by the fucking monsters in Lebanon. Right? Fuck them! Right? Because everything in the middle east has been rightfully Muslim since the Muslims CONQUERED it. Yes? That's your position, isn't it?

Those are straw men to bring in those other countries and what they do. How does Lebanon driving away Christians make it alright for Jews to ethnically cleanse Arabs? And remember, Jews are a race and not a religion (mostly).

Jews aren't ethnically cleansing Arabs. The Arab population of Israel is increasing. And, the west bank is not being "cleansed" of Arabs....hmmm..... would twer.....

So fucking what - Jews are a religion or a race - I don't care what you call them. Arabs are a race - Muslims are a religion. They still drove out the Christians from Lebanon and slaughtered them. That's where a REAL ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY happened - not just in your fantasies, but in REALITY. In the real world - Lebanon was a Christian country with a majority Christian Arab population, and the fucking Muslims cleansed them right the fuck out.

You don't know the first thing about what goes on in the West Bank. Do you even know what Hebron is? You should look it up and tell me that the Jews in Israel didn't ethnically cleanse the Arabs from there. Oh, wait: http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p770008 I already told you about Jews ethnically cleansing Arabs in Hebron and you just ignored it!

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

[pErvinalia]

Seth, from your logic of the right of conquest, then the 9/11 attacks and every "terrorist" attack against the US is entirely justified. And they weren't "terrorist" attacks at all, they were war campaigns. It was the fault of the Americans to be in the way of those airliners. Don't you agree?

Exactly. That's the morally bankrupt position one inevitably ends up in if they uncritically support the doctrine of "Might is Right".

[pErvinalia]

For one thing, Jews are a race. (Hey, that Jewish ambiguity came in handy. What dah yah know?)

Race or religion, it doesn't matter. Israel has as much right to exist as a Jewish country as Lebanon had to be Christian (until it was CONQUERED by the fucking Muslims...), and Jordan has to be Islamic, and Syria Islamic, etc. Doesn't it? Why not? Other than the fact that it's Jewish, of course.

You don't give a fuck about people being driven from their homes, anyway - you only care about MUSLIMS being driven from their homes. You care not bit about Christians being slaughtered by the fucking monsters in Lebanon. Right? Fuck them! Right? Because everything in the middle east has been rightfully Muslim since the Muslims CONQUERED it. Yes? That's your position, isn't it?

Those are straw men to bring in those other countries and what they do. How does Lebanon driving away Christians make it alright for Jews to ethnically cleanse Arabs? And remember, Jews are a race and not a religion (mostly).

It's called:

Hey! What's that over there? --------------------------->

[Warren Dew]

That reminds me - I misspoke - Lebanon was created as a CHRISTIAN country, and the Muslims started their shenanigans there and over 6 or 7 decades they managed to either kill or expel almost all the Christians from Lebanon.

There are still over 1.5 million Christians in Lebanon - nearly 40% of the population. The balance has shifted gradually in favor of muslims, but that's as much due to higher birth rates as anything else.

[Warren Dew]

The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)

The Israelis were the aggressors in this war.

That's one. But, Israel's case for preemptive strike in self-defense looks pretty good when you look at the forces aligned against it....

Had Israel waited for the attack to come, there would have been about 1,000 aircraft kicking in the door, with Egypt alone having about 1/2 that total. Followed by about 250,000 ground troops, and 500 tanks.... it was not looking good for Israel. Bold move.

Had Israel waited for the attack to come, it probably wouldn't have come at all, as we now know the Egyptians had cancelled their participation under pressure from the Soviet Union.

And now that I look at your list, how can 1956 be interpreted other than as naked aggression on the part of Israel, France, and the UK? Egypt's nationalization of the Suez canal was hardly an attack on Israel.

[Seth]

For one thing, Jews are a race. (Hey, that Jewish ambiguity came in handy. What dah yah know?)

Race or religion, it doesn't matter. Israel has as much right to exist as a Jewish country as Lebanon had to be Christian (until it was CONQUERED by the fucking Muslims...), and Jordan has to be Islamic, and Syria Islamic, etc. Doesn't it? Why not? Other than the fact that it's Jewish, of course.

You don't give a fuck about people being driven from their homes, anyway - you only care about MUSLIMS being driven from their homes. You care not bit about Christians being slaughtered by the fucking monsters in Lebanon. Right? Fuck them! Right? Because everything in the middle east has been rightfully Muslim since the Muslims CONQUERED it. Yes? That's your position, isn't it?

Those are straw men to bring in those other countries and what they do. How does Lebanon driving away Christians make it alright for Jews to ethnically cleanse Arabs? And remember, Jews are a race and not a religion (mostly).

Jews aren't ethnically cleansing Arabs. The Arab population of Israel is increasing. And, the west bank is not being "cleansed" of Arabs....hmmm..... would twer.....

So fucking what - Jews are a religion or a race - I don't care what you call them. Arabs are a race - Muslims are a religion. They still drove out the Christians from Lebanon and slaughtered them. That's where a REAL ethnic cleansing ACTUALLY happened - not just in your fantasies, but in REALITY. In the real world - Lebanon was a Christian country with a majority Christian Arab population, and the fucking Muslims cleansed them right the fuck out.

You don't know the first thing about what goes on in the West Bank. Do you even know what Hebron is? You should look it up and tell me that the Jews in Israel didn't ethnically cleanse the Arabs from there. Oh, wait: http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p770008 I already told you about Jews ethnically cleansing Arabs in Hebron and you just ignored it!

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

The term "ethnic cleansing" implies genocide, and Israel has never engaged in genocide, therefore your argument is dismissed as ignorant hyperbole.

As for your antipathy towards Christians, that too is dismissed as ignorant hyperbole.

[Coito ergo sum]

The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)

The Israelis were the aggressors in this war.

That's one. But, Israel's case for preemptive strike in self-defense looks pretty good when you look at the forces aligned against it....

Had Israel waited for the attack to come, there would have been about 1,000 aircraft kicking in the door, with Egypt alone having about 1/2 that total. Followed by about 250,000 ground troops, and 500 tanks.... it was not looking good for Israel. Bold move.

Had Israel waited for the attack to come, it probably wouldn't have come at all, as we now know the Egyptians had cancelled their participation under pressure from the Soviet Union.

I am willing to be corrected, but I don't think we know that.

I also don't know how we can say the attack probably wouldn't have come at all. Generally, you don't point a gun at someone and cock it if you're not going to fire.

[Coito ergo sum]

That reminds me - I misspoke - Lebanon was created as a CHRISTIAN country, and the Muslims started their shenanigans there and over 6 or 7 decades they managed to either kill or expel almost all the Christians from Lebanon.

There are still over 1.5 million Christians in Lebanon - nearly 40% of the population. The balance has shifted gradually in favor of muslims, but that's as much due to higher birth rates as anything else.

Gradually? 1/3 of the Christian population left in the last 30 years alone - since the civil war. Basically, they're being driven out -which is why 90% of diaspora Lebanese are Christian. See my other thread - there are whole villages of Christians that were emptied. This can't just be chalked up to higher birth rates.

[Coito ergo sum]

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

And, there it is!

That is the crux of it. "It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims." Not as along as I have breath, my friend. Take your Islam and shove it's filth somewhere dark.

You don't give a FUCK about Christians being driven out and you do care about Muslims being allegedly driven out. If Muslims drive people out, you say "good thing!" The height of hypocrisy. Why would anyone sympathize with that position?

And, Islam is a religion like Christianity is a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Muslim.

Islam is festering sore and canker on humanity. To suggest that Islam is more desirable than Christianity is borderline retarded. In the mostly Christian west, we have the emancipation of women, the emancipation of homosexuals, and principles of fairness and equality among religions. Islam is the religion that today buries women up to their heads and stones them to death, hangs homosexuals, and oppresses non-Muslims wherever it can.

[Warren Dew]

I also don't know how we can say the attack probably wouldn't have come at all. Generally, you don't point a gun at someone and cock it if you're not going to fire.

Actually it happens all the time. They're called "military exercises". You know, like the joint U.S.-South Korean naval exercises that put them in a good position to blockade North Korea and destroy much of their navy.

[sandinista]

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

And, there it is!

christians, muslims, same old same old shit. One isn't "worse" than the other, just bad in slightly different ways.

[Coito ergo sum]

I also don't know how we can say the attack probably wouldn't have come at all. Generally, you don't point a gun at someone and cock it if you're not going to fire.

Actually it happens all the time. They're called "military exercises". You know, like the joint U.S.-South Korean naval exercises that put them in a good position to blockade North Korea and destroy much of their navy.

Well, there are differences between military exercises and massing invasion troops at the border. It's possible to distinguish the difference. It's not an exact science. In the case of Israel, though, it was put in a position where it knew that if it hesitated and was wrong, it would be gone. The mistake of the Arab countries was not seeing that they had backed Israel into an inescapable corner, so Israel had no choice but to go Kobayashi Maru on their ass. I mean - line up 1,000 planes and 500 tanks and half a million men on the border of a country the size of New Jersey, all the while announcing your desire and intention to see that country eliminated from the planet and its population killed or exiled.

It's like someone who has nowhere to run and is confronted by a belligerent man who cocks his arm, balls his fist, stares you right in the face, and tells you he's going to punch your lights out that he can't sneak in an upper cut to prevent the brunt of the coming blow. It's possible the belligerent man won't punch, I suppose - but, he's telling you he wants to and he looks like he's going to.

And, quite often, such activities are designed to toe that line, deliberately. In those cases, a country is saying "I'm ready. Are you? Let's go." It's a game of chicken, and in that game a nation must understand that its bluff may be called.

[Coito ergo sum]

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

And, there it is!

christians, muslims, same old same old shit. One isn't "worse" than the other, just bad in slightly different ways.

Gawd thinks the Christians are worse. That's why he wants them pushed out in favor of Muslims.

And, I think it's arguable that Muslims TODAY are worse than Christians, by and large. Certainly, there is nothing INHERENTLY worse about it -both have horrid books that recount atrocities with glee, and applaud discrimination, misogyny, homophobia, and hatred of foreigners and unbelievers. However, in the real world of today, Islam is putting it into practice in a much more vigorous way, whereas Christianity has to a large extent been liberalized and de-fanged. I think that if Christians succeed in regaining the kind of power that Muslim theocrats now have, they would act in much the same way. I have no illusions about that.

Islam is a dirty, filthy belief system, though. Even it's milder forms institutionalize discrimination against women and proclaim thought-crime as a legitimate area of governmental intervention. Christianity does that too, but to a lesser extent due to the Reformation and the liberalization of the last 500 years.

[sandinista]

And driving out Christians is not ethnic cleansing. Christians are a religion, anybody can change their religion and become a Christian. It is better to drive out Christians and have Muslims since history has shown that Christians (through Hitler, KKK, George Bush, etc) are the most despicable religion and is undesirable.

And, there it is!

christians, muslims, same old same old shit. One isn't "worse" than the other, just bad in slightly different ways.

Gawd thinks the Christians are worse. That's why he wants them pushed out in favor of Muslims.

And, I think it's arguable that Muslims TODAY are worse than Christians, by and large. Certainly, there is nothing INHERENTLY worse about it -both have horrid books that recount atrocities with glee, and applaud discrimination, misogyny, homophobia, and hatred of foreigners and unbelievers. However, in the real world of today, Islam is putting it into practice in a much more vigorous way, whereas Christianity has to a large extent been liberalized and de-fanged. I think that if Christians succeed in regaining the kind of power that Muslim theocrats now have, they would act in much the same way. I have no illusions about that.

More vigorous? The biggest difference is the christians have an air force and a huge military budget, the muslims don't.

Islam is a dirty, filthy belief system, though. Even it's milder forms institutionalize discrimination against women and proclaim thought-crime as a legitimate area of governmental intervention. Christianity does that too, but to a lesser extent due to the Reformation and the liberalization of the last 500 years.

I don't entirely agree, christianity is just as filthy and dirty, it just goes about it's discrimination in other ways. The disaster in many parts of Africa due to the catholic church is but one recent example.