Horrific Fire Engulfs London Apartment Tower

[Scot Dutchy]

Low centre of gravity. Sumo wrestlers use the same principle.

[Alan B]

Guardian

Grenfell cladding approved by residents was swapped for cheaper version

Fire-resistant zinc cladding approved by residents of Grenfell Tower was replaced in the refurbishment contract with more flammable aluminium panels to save £293,368, according to documents seen by the Guardian.
A list of amendments to the £9.2m contract between Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO) and Rydon, the builder for the refurbishment of the 24-storey tower, reveals that the saving was made after tender by fitting “cassette fix aluminium cladding in lieu of zinc cladding”.
Other savings listed include the removal of all external landscaping works, saving £428,000, and changing window surrounds from birchwood to MDF or softwood in a further £117,000 cut.

...

Minutes of a progress meeting on 15 July 2014 attended by representatives of KCTMO, its project agent Artelia and Rydon, the contractor, suggest that the concerns they raised did not relate to safety but design issues, including the colour.
The minutes, seen by the Guardian, recorded: “RYD [Rydon] have completed the mock-up for the cladding and it was confirmed that the planners are viewing the colours and fixing detail on 17 July … The initial feedback on the cladding, following a walk around prior to the meeting, is that the vertical sections need design work.
It added in a post-meeting note: “The initial feedback from the planners is that they would probably prefer the champagne to brushed aluminium and they were not that keen on the face fix.”
The minutes also suggest that even though the design for the cladding was well under way, fire consultants had yet to be appointed.
It said that Rydon would appoint “other consultants (to include fire, DDA [disability discrimination act], acoustic, etc) after the main sub-contractors are on board”.

I suspect that this is the course of events adopted by other councils. As long as it looks pretty, sod the safety aspect - we'll think about that later.
I would also suspect that if one council does the 'tests', then other councils will not repeat those 'tests' with the false assumption that the first set of 'tests' should not be questioned and like sheep they follow their 'leader'.

The 'Austerity' mind-set is causing loss of life and not just at Grenfell but in the NHS as well.

The truth will out!

[Rum]

What is getting me at the moment is that the media and others are doing an on-the-fly inquest of their own on what are probably highly technical issues. It would appear that one test that is being carried out is on a known flammable substance that was part of the panels and designed in - all done in a rush. This substance is expected to ignite. Everybody rushes to this that and the other conclusion. Given 24 hour news I don't suppose it is surprising but the fact is there are no instant explanations available and only time - that thing modern people insist should offer up instant answers to everything - and a proper investigation will provide.

[Brian Peacock]

... And the best Sifu's in the Ip Man movies are all fatties.

Except Donnie Yen. He's well tidy.

[Brian Peacock]

What is getting me at the moment is that the media and others are doing an on-the-fly inquest of their own on what are probably highly technical issues. It would appear that one test that is being carried out is on a known flammable substance that was part of the panels and designed in - all done in a rush. This substance is expected to ignite. Everybody rushes to this that and the other conclusion. Given 24 hour news I don't suppose it is surprising but the fact is there are no instant explanations available and only time - that thing modern people insist should offer up instant answers to everything - and a proper investigation will provide.

A good point, worth repeating.

[pErvinalia]

... And the best Sifu's in the Ip Man movies are all fatties.

Except Donnie Yen. He's well tidy.

D'oh! I forgot about the actual star and clearly the best Sifu in the movie. But having said that, imagine how good he would be with another 60kgs of fat on him!

[JimC]

What is getting me at the moment is that the media and others are doing an on-the-fly inquest of their own on what are probably highly technical issues. It would appear that one test that is being carried out is on a known flammable substance that was part of the panels and designed in - all done in a rush. This substance is expected to ignite. Everybody rushes to this that and the other conclusion. Given 24 hour news I don't suppose it is surprising but the fact is there are no instant explanations available and only time - that thing modern people insist should offer up instant answers to everything - and a proper investigation will provide.

While I agree that thorough and rigorous scientific evaluation is necessary for a variety of reasons (including providing evidence that will not get shot down in court), the fire itself was one giant experiment. It is 100% clear that the cladding itself was burning furiously and fast. That fact in itself is justification enough to remove any other identical cladding from high-rise buildings anywhere...

[Alan B]

It should be noted that the 'Zinc' panels often quoted concerning this disaster are in reality 'Zinc-coated steel panels' unlike the Aluminium panels which are solid Aluminium with no coatings (except decoration).

It should also be noted that the melting point of pure Aluminium is 660oC. If it is alloyed with another metal the MP can be reduced down to 500oC.
I would suspect that the temperature of the Grenfell fire would have easily exceeded the MP of Aluminium or its alloys.

Materials - page 18

[Alan B]

With regard to the foam filling and building fires, this make interesting reading from Japan:
Urethane -JP - page 9
Polyurethane foam Flash Point is 310 C while the Ignition Point is 415 C.
Cant find details for Grenfell PIR foam yet but it could be similar.

[Alan B]

Fucked-up post!

[pErvinalia]

It should be noted that the 'Zinc' panels often quoted concerning this disaster are in reality 'Zinc-coated steel panels' unlike the Aluminium panels which are solid Aluminium with no coatings (except decoration).

It should also be noted that the melting point of pure Aluminium is 660oC. If it is alloyed with another metal the MP can be reduced down to 500oC.
I would suspect that the temperature of the Grenfell fire would have easily exceeded the MP of Aluminium or its alloys.

I dunno about that. Only because it looks like many of the panels are still on there. These panels have a plastic insulating foam between the metal sheets. It seems as if they were what burned so strongly. I also heard one reporter in the day after the fire recounting some expert opinion that these panels need to have physical vertical breaks between them. That stops the whole length (height) of panelling on the building from warping and forming a chimney/venturi effect between the panels and the wall. It looks like they didn't have those and that also allowed the fire to race up the side of the building so fast and intensely.

[Brian Peacock]

The head and deputy head of Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council have resigned. Well, I say resigned - they were made an offer they couldn't refuse. Trying to hold secret council meetings didn't help their case.

Really though, more heads should roll over this - not just for the failures in oversight re the refurbishment and fire safety measures, but for the serious political and administrative failures in dealing with the surviving residents.

[pErvinalia]

Someone needs to go to prison over this.

[Alan B]

It should be noted that the 'Zinc' panels often quoted concerning this disaster are in reality 'Zinc-coated steel panels' unlike the Aluminium panels which are solid Aluminium with no coatings (except decoration).

It should also be noted that the melting point of pure Aluminium is 660oC. If it is alloyed with another metal the MP can be reduced down to 500oC.
I would suspect that the temperature of the Grenfell fire would have easily exceeded the MP of Aluminium or its alloys.

I dunno about that. Only because it looks like many of the panels are still on there. These panels have a plastic insulating foam between the metal sheets. It seems as if they were what burned so strongly. I also heard one reporter in the day after the fire recounting some expert opinion that these panels need to have physical vertical breaks between them. That stops the whole length (height) of panelling on the building from warping and forming a chimney/venturi effect between the panels and the wall. It looks like they didn't have those and that also allowed the fire to race up the side of the building so fast and intensely.

With building fires usually exceeding the melting point of Aluminium any 'fire breaks' fitted could be destroyed.
If, however, Zinc plated steel was used any 'Fire-breaks' would remain intact for longer.

[Alan B]

As an addendum to the above post, steel melts at about 1370C and to clarify the 'Zinc' confusion, that melts at 419.5C. House and building fires can reach up to 1000C or more. The damage at Grenfell and the pictures of the conflagration certainly indicates, to my mind, temperatures up to and possibly exceeding 1000C.

Metro

Using cladding made from the same materials as that in Grenfell Tower, they went to a laboratory to carry out tests.

There, the materials were heated to 700°C for two minutes – the fire at Grenfell reached temperatures of more than 1,000°C.