General Election UK, June 8th...

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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 03, 2017 3:54 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:You think people who don't pay into society don't have a dog in the hunt of how the world progresses? :think:
Metaphorically speaking, no, they don't. If a person, say, receives money from a system, but does not contribute to it, then that person's view of the system is quite different from the person who pays money in. It's far easier for someone who does not pay taxes to vote for tax increases that will be paid by other people.
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Government is just a mechanism for managing society and the world. Everyone has skin in the game of life and surviving. However, young people have far more to lose than old people if shit goes wrong.
Government =/= the game of life. Everyone has an interest in what government does, yes. But having an interest is not the same as having a skin in the game. Skin in the game is a term which originated with situations in which people use their own money to buy stock in the company they are running. If you don't have a skin in the game, your own money is not at stake. That's what I was trying to get at.
But everyone's individual life is at stake. No life is more important than any other. Disenfranchisement is pretty anti-liberal, even for a conservative such as you.. :tea:
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 03, 2017 3:55 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:It could be a good idea. Then the likes of Trump and other 1% wouldn't have a say either.. :coffee:
Let's just make buying influence open and lawful. Give people a per-dollar-paid share of the vote. If a rich guy wants no say, he can pay zero taxes. If he wants to have a lot of say in the outcome of elections, make his share dependent on the amount of money he pays in taxes. Make a game out of it, where nobody knows exactly what their influence will be until all the taxes for the previous year are collected. That would provide an incentive for rich people to keep paying in more, because they'd never be sure that someone else isn't outbidding them....
Can't tell if serious or not...
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 03, 2017 4:06 pm

pErvin wrote: But everyone's individual life is at stake. No life is more important than any other. Disenfranchisement is pretty anti-liberal, even for a conservative such as you.. :tea:
Therefore, taking this exchange back to the top, the old fogeys you wanted to disenfranchise are just as important as the young folks you wanted to privilege, and therefore the old fogeys should be allowed to vote, because "disenfranchisement is pretty anti-liberal" even for a progressive such as you...

Now, back, to my argument about having a skin in the game. Recall that when I first mentioned the issue of taxes in voting, in response to your old-fogeys-shouldn't vote post, I referred to people "thinking differently" when they are financially invested in something. Do you, at least, acknowledge that when someone has their own money involved, they think differently about something, as compared to the issues that don't financially impact them?

And, do you also agree that where someone is voting, there is a different incentive to voting for getting money than for paying money? Isn't that why people who pay taxes have an incentive to vote for lower taxes, and people who don't pay taxes don't care as much if the taxes are raised on other people?
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 03, 2017 4:17 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote: But everyone's individual life is at stake. No life is more important than any other. Disenfranchisement is pretty anti-liberal, even for a conservative such as you.. :tea:
Therefore, taking this exchange back to the top, the old fogeys you wanted to disenfranchise are just as important as the young folks you wanted to privilege, and therefore the old fogeys should be allowed to vote, because "disenfranchisement is pretty anti-liberal" even for a progressive such as you...
I would have thought it was obvious I wasn't serious about denying the vote to old cunts. It was meant to be a point about how dumb a lot of old people are.
Now, back, to my argument about having a skin in the game. Recall that when I first mentioned the issue of taxes in voting, in response to your old-fogeys-shouldn't vote post, I referred to people "thinking differently" when they are financially invested in something. Do you, at least, acknowledge that when someone has their own money involved, they think differently about something, as compared to the issues that don't financially impact them?

And, do you also agree that where someone is voting, there is a different incentive to voting for getting money than for paying money? Isn't that why people who pay taxes have an incentive to vote for lower taxes, and people who don't pay taxes don't care as much if the taxes are raised on other people?
It's too late at night for me to try and parse whatever argument you are trying to make. You suggested (if I recall correctly) people who pay tax have more to lose than those who don't. Nothing is as important as one's life. So no, they don't have more to lose.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 03, 2017 4:38 pm

...more at issue financially. Everyone's life is, as you said, equally important and equally impacted by what the State does, generally speaking. So, that's a baseline issue, and those who have the financial skins in the game have more to lose, or more at stake. That's why I asked if you would agree that one's approach to an issue changes relative to one's financial stake - financial skin in the game. Don't you agree with me?

Like, if you have two options to choose from, and one costs you $100, and the other hands you $100, which one are you more likely to favor, all else being equal?
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 03, 2017 5:32 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Time for the Isle of Wight's most famous resident to step up to the plate...
Isle of Wight? More like "Isle of White" - racist buggers! I think the darkest person on the Island is 1/32 Spanish.
:hehe: And they still call him Black Tony.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by JimC » Wed May 03, 2017 9:11 pm

Forty Two wrote:

So, what can possibly be "terrifying" about a person who holds that view?
Because, instead of being a man in the street with no influence, he was, or could be, an elected politician with a chance to further a potentially vicious anti-gay agenda. :roll:
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu May 04, 2017 1:54 am

Thank fuck for the UK, the only sensible country on the planet. The only people who can see through the globalist, corporate, open borders stupidity for what it is. The loony left is going to be BTFO and the only worry for us Tories is she will win too many seats which could mean she gets to ignore the hard line Euro skeptics and go for a soft Brexit. Though the way the fucking krauts and frogs and the rest of EU are behaving at the moment it looks like we will get a hard Brexit anyway. :smoke:
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 04, 2017 2:40 am

Forty Two wrote:...more at issue financially. Everyone's life is, as you said, equally important and equally impacted by what the State does, generally speaking. So, that's a baseline issue, and those who have the financial skins in the game have more to lose, or more at stake. That's why I asked if you would agree that one's approach to an issue changes relative to one's financial stake - financial skin in the game. Don't you agree with me?
Yeah, sure. But financial issues aren't the only reason why we vote. For a lot of us it's not even the primary reason, and arguably it shouldn't be the primary reason.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 04, 2017 2:42 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:Thank fuck for the UK, the only sensible country on the planet. The only people who can see through the globalist, corporate, open borders stupidity for what it is.
Um, dude, you've got a Tory government. There are few governments on the planet that are more neoliberal (i.e. corporatist) than your government. :fp:
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 04, 2017 7:21 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:Thank fuck for the UK, the only sensible country on the planet. The only people who can see through the globalist, corporate, open borders stupidity for what it is. The loony left is going to be BTFO and the only worry for us Tories is she will win too many seats which could mean she gets to ignore the hard line Euro skeptics and go for a soft Brexit. Though the way the fucking krauts and frogs and the rest of EU are behaving at the moment it looks like we will get a hard Brexit anyway. :smoke:
All that has happened is that the EU have published their negotiating position, which is more than Mrs May has done. What's happening with the Tories now is that the ground is being prepared and seeded to pin all responsibility for all errors and failures on the EU from now until we finally rejoin in 20 years. ATM Mrs May is desperately trying to convince the nation that everbody is out of step but her.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu May 04, 2017 7:32 am

The EU are keeping all talks public which infuriates May as she wanted secret talks so the disembowelling of the UK can be kept from the UK citizens.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by Alan B » Thu May 04, 2017 8:36 am

Forty Two wrote:Did he drop out because he figured he was going to lose?
Don't think so. If a Chimp with 'Tory' written on his forehead put themselves forward, it would still win in the IoW.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by PsychoSerenity » Thu May 04, 2017 8:48 am

Forty Two wrote:That's why I asked if you would agree that one's approach to an issue changes relative to one's financial stake - financial skin in the game. Don't you agree with me?
Only if one is a selfish bastard that thinks their own financial gain is more important than the rest of society.
Like, if you have two options to choose from, and one costs you $100, and the other hands you $100, which one are you more likely to favor, all else being equal?
"All else being equal" is one of the most overused and fallacious concepts in economics, but here you haven't even bothered to suggest there is another side to the equation. How is this $200 swing supposed to occur with no effect on anything else? I'm very much in favour of a universal basic income, but that still has to be costed and paid for. It depends where the money comes from or goes to. If I'm losing £100 but it is helping to keep hospitals open and prevent people becoming homeless, that's fine by me. If I'm gaining £100 as a result of further Tory capital gains tax breaks, frankly I could do without.
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Re: General Election UK, June 8th...

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 04, 2017 9:38 am

Yep.
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