Those crazy Muslim bastards did it again

[Seth]

Is it to be an eye for an eye (Leviticus 24:19–21) or turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-39). Interpretation is unavoidable, even for those who are serious when they say that they accept every word of whatever holy book they subscribe to as the literal truth.

Old vs. New Testament fallacy. Mendaciously conflating the two is a favorite bit of intellectual dishonesty of Atheist religious zealots.

It's the Bible, man. No conflation necessary until the OT has been excised from it and removed from the pulpits of Christian churches.

The OT is a historical document that gives context to the grace and importance of the salvation of Christ. It demonstrates just how gracious God was to send his only begotten son to earth as a man to suffer and die to expiate the sins of all mankind. It's not a guidebook for Christian behavior because, well, Christ wasn't around during OT times and his time on earth changed all of those OT rules and behaviors. That's the whole point of his existence.

Mendacity and intellectual dishonesty is absent.

Mendacity and intellectual dishonesty are endemic and pervasive here.

[rainbow]

Religions and certain types of political movements have some important details in common, and yet they also important differences. One cannot understand the differences without analysing the supernatural belief systems inherent in religions. Analysing them does not mean accepting their delusional premises...

Drivel. Both are ideologies, religion simply uses the belief in the supernatural to justify itself.

What are you babbling about? A concept has no "itself". Religion is the sum total of its followers. They justify it by the act of aligning-to/following it.

Religion isn't a concept, but an organization.

Which itself is a concept. I.e. a concept can't sentiently act, like you are wibbling. Again, religion is justified by its followers. The vast majority of whom believe in a god or gods. Ergo, religion is clearly about god, despite your silly assertion to the contrary.

You completely miss the point.

Never mind, I didn't expect you to get it.

[Seth]

Islam means submission? Sounds EXACTLY what ALL religions mean.

Yes obviously ! but say "Christianity sucks" and you are right on track with mainstream atheism say "Islam is an evil cult based on the life of a murderous child molester and his gang of slave-trading rapists" and atheists walk away Talk about Jebus vs Mohammed the basis for the two cults and the universal reaction is to find the shit in the OT ignoring that the violence in the OT was NOT taught or acted upon by the Christ character but the violence in Islam is all contemporary to one central character .Most of the rape, torture, child- abuse, theft ,lying, breaking of treaties and genocide in Islam are direct orders from Mohammed( or his own much glorified actions) and carried out by his personal companions who ,according to Islam are "The Best of Men."
I will repeat it again and again until someone sodding listens! Stop fucking believing the glossy brochure for Islam and read what their holy books actually SAY ! READ about the life of Mohammed from Islam's most accepted sources or just keep telling me that Islam means peace and that Islam respects women or whatever FUCKING LIES YOU HAVE SUCKED UP WHILE TRYING SO SODDING HARD NOT TO OFFEND.

You hit the nail on the head. It's beyond psychotic that Atheists, when presented with a criticism of Islam, won't debate the pros and cons of Islam but instead inevitably, as inevitably as gravity, start attacking Christianity and its history, as if drawing that false moral equivalence somehow constitutes a thoughtful and rational consideration of Islam.

The argument always boils down to the childlike argument "Well, Islam sucks, BUT CHRISTIANITY SUCKS WAY WORSE!" It's a diversionary tactic intended to derail the topic into the militant radical Atheist zealot's favorite trope: bashing billions of people they don't even know by accusing them of complicity in the wrongdoing done by people a thousand years ago. It's the essence of the ancestral guilt fallacy.

It's not that they particularly like Islam, it's just that they are so mindlessly hateful and determined to disparage Christianity that they will turn ANY discussion of religion, even an abstract one without reference to any particular religion into an attack on Christianity. One would think that they themselves are Islamic radical jihadists given their mindless, insane hatred of all things Christian. I've never seen one of them say anything positive about Christianity or Christians despite the fact that billions of people live happily and peacefully under Christianity and have done so for thousands of years.

It's mind boggling the degree of bigotry and hate Atheists manifest towards Christians...and even towards those who merely point out their egregious lies and factual errors about the Christian faith.

And if they know fuck-all about Christianity and Christians they know less than fuck-all about Islam and have no interest whatever in learning about it.

[Seth]

Is it to be an eye for an eye (Leviticus 24:19–21) or turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-39). Interpretation is unavoidable, even for those who are serious when they say that they accept every word of whatever holy book they subscribe to as the literal truth.

Old vs. New Testament fallacy. Mendaciously conflating the two is a favorite bit of intellectual dishonesty of Atheist religious zealots.

It's the Bible, man. No conflation necessary until the OT has been excised from it and removed from the pulpits of Christian churches. Mendacity and intellectual dishonesty is absent.

Of course, you can never split the OT and NT, because the NT is meaningless without the OT. The OT prophesies a Messiah, and the NT is all about the claimed fulfilment of that prophesy. The Old Testament is the pack of cards upon which the entirety of New Testament Christianity is built. Without the Old Testament, Jesus is just an angry Jew in a bathrobe.

As I said, it's an historical document that gives context to the life of Jesus, not a behavioral guide for Christians.

[Seth]

Is it to be an eye for an eye (Leviticus 24:19–21) or turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-39). Interpretation is unavoidable, even for those who are serious when they say that they accept every word of whatever holy book they subscribe to as the literal truth.

Old vs. New Testament fallacy. Mendaciously conflating the two is a favorite bit of intellectual dishonesty of Atheist religious zealots.

It's the Bible, man. No conflation necessary until the OT has been excised from it and removed from the pulpits of Christian churches. Mendacity and intellectual dishonesty is absent.

Of course, you can never split the OT and NT, because the NT is meaningless without the OT. The OT prophesies a Messiah, and the NT is all about the claimed fulfilment of that prophesy. The Old Testament is the pack of cards upon which the entirety of New Testament Christianity is built. Without the Old Testament, Jesus is just an angry Jew in a bathrobe.

Besides, there's the matter of what the alleged son of god allegedly said about the OT: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:17-18

The standard copout is to claim that all is fulfilled with the crucifixion. It kind of ignores an unfulfilled prophesy: The second coming. That's when "all these things be fulfilled."

Well, God, and the Son of God are permitted to ignore mere human prophecy, are they not? Or change it. And who said it was a prophecy from God anyway? God? Nope. Some OT guy wandering around in the desert said God told him something. That doesn't mean God actually did so. You are falling into the Atheist's Fallacy trap again by assuming that what believers say about the Bible, either the OT or the NT, is invariably true...like the claim that the Bible is the invariably true Word of God. That's a human claim, not a divine one, at least insofar as direct evidence indicates. Therefore the prophecy you refer to may merely have been a mistaken interpretation of a vision given by God to the prophet.

It's in Matthew 24:1-34, but of course it's ignored by those who want to believe that the old covenant has expired already and Christians no longer need to feel compelled to stone people to death because they ate prawns, gave lip to their parents, got raped in a village other than the one they live in, wore rayments of two different types of cloth et cetera. Of course not all laws have been annulled. The ten commandment, for example. Christians are still prohibited to have gods besides the jealous one. Nobody has explained yet how we are supposed to know which laws are redundant and which remain current.

Jesus explained it. Your ignorance of his teachings is not his fault or anyone else's problem. If you want to better understand God's desires for your behavior then the appropriate source for that information is God. Of course God is under no compulsion to answer the questions of Doubting Thomases or Atheists who have no real interest in either learning the truth or obeying God's laws so as to receive eternal salvation.

Most religions are private clubs and they don't let just anyone in on the secrets of the club, you have to (in this case) have an earnest and honest desire to seek out the truth and obtain salvation of your own free will. Neither God nor Jesus is under any obligation to debate or explain anything to you, so it'll probably remain a mystery to you.

Hanging your entire condemnation of Christianity on one or two quote-mined statements in either the OT or the NT is childish and irrational. One needs to understand the complete context to have any sort of rational understanding of Christianity, something Atheists are completely disinterested in obtaining.

[Seth]

Now, about those crazy Muslim bastards...

Do ya think Turkey is going full-monty radical Muslim after the "coup" purge?

[Seth]

Utter nonsense. Religion is about what supernatural world and moral view you hold nearly always with a deity in charge - irrespective of what you practice - the Spanish Inquisition??

Theism is just a woolly place holder for a deity people can't quite picture. And atheism, for fuck's sake is a neutral position taken in the absence of evidence for a supernatural explanation.

Wrong.

Religion
[ri-lij-uh n]

noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.:
to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Nothing in there that says a "supernatural world and moral view you hold nearly always with a deity in charge" is an inherent or necessary part of "religion." Of course it CAN BE part of a religion, but it is neither a requirement nor a qualification.

Again, succinctly, religion is about how you go about practicing what you believe, nothing more.

And atheism per se is not a religion, it's just a set of beliefs, but depending upon how one goes about practicing those beliefs it can, and very often does, and absolutely does in this forum, constitute both religious belief and a religion that is anything but a "neutral stance," as is proven by the universal hostility and bigotry towards people of faith that spews from this forum at the drop of a hat. There is no more certain and absolute proof that Atheism as a religion exists than the existence and content of this forum...except perhaps the existence and content of RDnet, RatSkep and a bunch of other militant religious Atheist fora.

[Sean Hayden]

Christians are to follow the laws of Judaism as much as they are able. Jews, being the most civilized of racists, recognized the enormity of the gentiles' inadequacy in this regard, and so made exceptions for them provided they submitted to the same god.

Islam will grant the same favor should you want it.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

Again with the Wayback Machine fallacy. Oy! Give it a rest. We're discussing contemporary behaviors driven by contemporary religious beliefs. Your lame attempts at drawing a moral equivalency between the misdeeds of Christians a thousand years in the past and the misdeeds of Muslims yesterday is as intellectually dishonest as it gets and gives you the appearance of being an apologist for Muslim terrorism because you use the implicit "Christians did it so Muslims get to do it too" bullshit argument.

In fact, it is a vital counter to your assertion that there is a major difference in religious nature between Islam and Christianity, which you are advocating as the sole reason why contemporary Islam is much more involved with violence than contemporary christianity (a fact that most would agree with)

If that were the case, then this intrinsic difference would have meant that the differing levels of violence were the same all through history. To refute that, it is both easy and necessary to demonstrate that christian violence and brutality was historically very prevalent. There are probably many reasons why this has shrunk dramatically over the years, and possibly a degree of internal reform of christianity towards a gentler version was part of it, but it is clear to anyone with a decent knowledge of history that the progressive shrinking of the worldly power of the church post-enlightenment was a vital component. I'm not ruling out that some of the current disparity in the extent of violence are due to intrinsic religious differences, but that is not the whole picture by any means.

The other way you stick your head in the sand over christian traditions is to proclaim that the old testament has nothing to do with christianity, and therefore its particularly vicious sections can be safely ignored in this debate. This is a nonsense, as shown by the fact that pastors, priests and preachers of every major christian denomination still regularly use readings from the old testament in religious services. Wisely, they usually avoid the bits where delight is taken in bears eating small children who have ignored prophets...

[Hermit]

Is it to be an eye for an eye (Leviticus 24:19–21) or turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-39). Interpretation is unavoidable, even for those who are serious when they say that they accept every word of whatever holy book they subscribe to as the literal truth.

Old vs. New Testament fallacy. Mendaciously conflating the two is a favorite bit of intellectual dishonesty of Atheist religious zealots.

It's the Bible, man. No conflation necessary until the OT has been excised from it and removed from the pulpits of Christian churches. Mendacity and intellectual dishonesty is absent.

Of course, you can never split the OT and NT, because the NT is meaningless without the OT. The OT prophesies a Messiah, and the NT is all about the claimed fulfilment of that prophesy. The Old Testament is the pack of cards upon which the entirety of New Testament Christianity is built. Without the Old Testament, Jesus is just an angry Jew in a bathrobe.

As I said, it's an historical document that gives context to the life of Jesus, not a behavioral guide for Christians.

I guess we can ignore the ten commandments then, and what the alleged son of god allegedly said on the matter as reported in Matthew 5:17-18.

[Seth]

Christians are to follow the laws of Judaism as much as they are able.

Complete horseshit.

[pErvinalia]

Islam means submission? Sounds EXACTLY what ALL religions mean.

Yes obviously ! but say "Christianity sucks" and you are right on track with mainstream atheism say "Islam is an evil cult based on the life of a murderous child molester and his gang of slave-trading rapists" and atheists walk away Talk about Jebus vs Mohammed the basis for the two cults and the universal reaction is to find the shit in the OT ignoring that the violence in the OT was NOT taught or acted upon by the Christ character but the violence in Islam is all contemporary to one central character .Most of the rape, torture, child- abuse, theft ,lying, breaking of treaties and genocide in Islam are direct orders from Mohammed( or his own much glorified actions) and carried out by his personal companions who ,according to Islam are "The Best of Men."
I will repeat it again and again until someone sodding listens! Stop fucking believing the glossy brochure for Islam and read what their holy books actually SAY ! READ about the life of Mohammed from Islam's most accepted sources or just keep telling me that Islam means peace and that Islam respects women or whatever FUCKING LIES YOU HAVE SUCKED UP WHILE TRYING SO SODDING HARD NOT TO OFFEND.

I hate Islam. What the fuck are you going on about?!

[pErvinalia]

Irrational belief. That's a BIG "what else".

You underrate the value of irrational belief and overrate the value of rigid rational belief in terms of human happiness.

In other words, what the fuck is so great about Atheism that anybody would even want to believe in it? Absofuckinglutely nothing, that's what. Most Atheists are some of the most evil, cruel, uncaring, selfish, self-righteous, miserable bastards I've ever had the displeasure to have met. On the other hand, the vast majority of Christians I know, and I know many, are the most kind, caring, loving, peaceable, humble and tolerant people I've ever met.

So do tell us, whatever the fuck you call yourself today, just exactly what is so great about Atheism and why anybody should do anything other than shake their heads in sorrow and pity at the empty nihilism of atheistic lives? You love to bitch and complain and demean and insult other people, but never once have I heard a cogent, compelling argument as to why your system of religious belief (and that's exactly what it is) is so superior to every other system of religious belief. Care to give it a go?

I don't know what an Atheist is.

Look in a mirror and you'll see an Atheist. Your faith in the tenets of Atheism are as dogmatic and irrational as those of any theist you might decide to disparage.

That looks suspiciously like a personal attack via the Seth "I don't like what he said" standard. Suspend yourself forthwith.

[pErvinalia]

Utter nonsense. Religion is about what supernatural world and moral view you hold nearly always with a deity in charge - irrespective of what you practice - the Spanish Inquisition??

Theism is just a woolly place holder for a deity people can't quite picture. And atheism, for fuck's sake is a neutral position taken in the absence of evidence for a supernatural explanation.

Don't bother. He's a waste of time.

[pErvinalia]

Drivel. Both are ideologies, religion simply uses the belief in the supernatural to justify itself.

What are you babbling about? A concept has no "itself". Religion is the sum total of its followers. They justify it by the act of aligning-to/following it.

Religion isn't a concept, but an organization.

Which itself is a concept. I.e. a concept can't sentiently act, like you are wibbling. Again, religion is justified by its followers. The vast majority of whom believe in a god or gods. Ergo, religion is clearly about god, despite your silly assertion to the contrary.

You completely miss the point.

Never mind, I didn't expect you to get it.

And you're starting to troll again like you do every time someone doesn't agree with you when on the rare occasion you will yourself to write more than a one sentence reply.

The simple fact is that religion is the sum total of its followers. If it's followers believe religion to be about gods, then it is utterly nonsensical to claim that religion isn't about gods.