Meanwhile, back in Kiev....

[mistermack]

Yes of course Israel should vanish.
They should take it and stick it in Arizona, or Colorado, or better still Alaska.
And return the land to the Palestinians.

And the US saying it's against settlements is a joke. How can you swallow that bullshit? It's purely for appearance. The US and Israel are as one. Behind the scenes.

And where your ''point of a gun'' type argument falls down, is the fact that the turnout was over eighty percent. What's ninety three percent of eighty percent? I'll tell you, it's seventy five percent.

So the people who didn't vote made fuck-all difference.

[Seth]

I bet the UKrainian gummint will be asking Iran or NK about help to develop their own nuke arsenal...

This is something that I find extremely disturbing (professionally tinted as I am). The complete disregard by Putin of promises given when Ukraine abstained from their nukes, and the inability of the west to do anything about it. This does not encourage anyone to abstain from nukes, and could become the most far reaching effect of this conflict in times to come.

Agreed. Qadafi, who voluntarily gave up his nuclear program, is gone; Ukraine, which voluntarily gave up their nuclear weapons, is being divvied up by the great powers. Meanwhile, North Korea is left alone. It's becoming more and more clear that actual nuclear weapons are a much better guarantor of safety than trusting to the big nuclear nations.

You've got a funny idea of safety.
I'd rather be Crimean than North Korean. The Russians have probably prevented a blood-bath in Crimea, by acting fast.

Forget your ''safety''.
The best thing that could happen to North Korea would be an attack by a major power.

Kinda strange how there was no threat of "bloodbath" by anybody until Putin stuck his nose into things when the Ukrainian people tossed out his puppet and threatened to relieve Putin of his power to be the puppetmaster. And then the only threat to anyone came from Putin and the Russian military.

[mistermack]

Kinda strange how there was no threat of "bloodbath" by anybody until Putin stuck his nose into things when the Ukrainian people tossed out his puppet and threatened to relieve Putin of his power to be the puppetmaster. And then the only threat to anyone came from Putin and the Russian military.

Spot the big fat lie. There's usually at least one lurking in your posts.

[Seth]

Kinda strange how there was no threat of "bloodbath" by anybody until Putin stuck his nose into things when the Ukrainian people tossed out his puppet and threatened to relieve Putin of his power to be the puppetmaster. And then the only threat to anyone came from Putin and the Russian military.

Spot the big fat lie. There's usually at least one lurking in your posts.

I'd say that the hundreds of thousands of people occupying Kiev's main square in protest is evidence of the temper of the people, and when what was a peaceful protest of the Russophilic and disloyal acts of their president in ignoring the desire of the people to have closer ties with Europe rather than Russia turned into bloodbath perpetrated by Russophilic police at the direction of a disloyal president (or alternatively by actual Russian agents to foment rebellion that is being used as a justification for Russian invasion) deposing the president by action of the Ukrainian legislature, particularly after he abandoned his post and fled the country, is clearly a manifestation of the will of the people as expressed by their duly-elected representatives in their legislature.

If Obama attempted to align America with Communists and despotic regimes like North Korea by signing agreements purporting to bind Americans to those regimes and then he ordered the DC police to fire on the millions of demonstrators who would occupy the National Mall in protest, it would be within our rights as citizens to demand that our Congress remove him from office...by impeachment if possible and by force if necessary, and if Congress refused to do so and was conspiring with the president to violate the Constitution then we, the People would be justified in deposing the tyrants, again by force if necessary.

That's precisely the sort of thing contemplated by the Founders when they protected our right to keep and bear arms against legislative interference.

[Tero]

Putin!
We will cut off your Netflix!

[pErvinalia]

Putin condemns western hypocrisy as he confirms annexation of Crimea

Vladimir Putin announced the annexation of Crimea on Tuesday in a searing speech to assembled political elites in Moscow shot through with angry rhetoric about western aggression and hypocrisy.

.....

He was frequently interrupted by applause and at the end of the speech signed documents together with the de facto leader of Crimea, Sergei Aksyonov – who came to power after seizing the local parliament at gunpoint last month – to absorb the territory into Russia.

Putin recognised Crimea as an independent state late on Monday evening, making it easier to incorporate into the Russian Federation than if it were still Ukrainian territory. Kiev has said it will never give up its claim to Crimea, but is unable to respond to Russia militarily due to the huge disparity in their respective martial forces.

......

However, he reiterated his belief that Moscow feels the Kiev government is illegitimate, and also referenced long-held Russian fears of encirclement by the west.

"I do not want to be welcomed in Sevastopol by Nato sailors," said Putin, speaking of the Crimean port where Russia's Black Sea fleet is based. The city has special status within Crimea, and officially, Russia will welcome two new nations into its fold: Crimea, and the city of Sevastopol.

In Crimea itself, thousands gathered in Sevastopol to watch Putin's speech on a big screen in the main square and broke into the Russian national anthem when it was over. In the Crimean capital, Simferopol, men on ladders removed the large gold Ukrainian-language lettering on the regional parliament.

It is expected that in the coming months Crimea will switch to the rouble and introduce Moscow time and the Russian visa system. Russia will begin ratification of the treaty to formalise Crimea's annexation within days.

The grab of Crimea went ahead despite the US and EU announcing sanctions against several top Russian officials on Monday. On Tuesday the foreign ministry responded angrily to the sanctions and said reciprocal measures would be introduced.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... annexation

[JimC]

The horse has well and truly bolted...

[Warren Dew]

I bet the UKrainian gummint will be asking Iran or NK about help to develop their own nuke arsenal...

This is something that I find extremely disturbing (professionally tinted as I am). The complete disregard by Putin of promises given when Ukraine abstained from their nukes, and the inability of the west to do anything about it. This does not encourage anyone to abstain from nukes, and could become the most far reaching effect of this conflict in times to come.

Agreed. Qadafi, who voluntarily gave up his nuclear program, is gone; Ukraine, which voluntarily gave up their nuclear weapons, is being divvied up by the great powers. Meanwhile, North Korea is left alone. It's becoming more and more clear that actual nuclear weapons are a much better guarantor of safety than trusting to the big nuclear nations.

You've got a funny idea of safety.
I'd rather be Crimean than North Korean. The Russians have probably prevented a blood-bath in Crimea, by acting fast.

Forget your ''safety''.
The best thing that could happen to North Korea would be an attack by a major power.

I'm just pointing out how the world actually is; regimes with nuclear weapons are safe from interference by the great powers, and thus free to mistreat their citizens as much as they want. I don't think that's the way the world should be any more than you do; it's just that what is and what should be are often two very different things.

[mistermack]

Forget your ''safety''.
The best thing that could happen to North Korea would be an attack by a major power.

I'm just pointing out how the world actually is; regimes with nuclear weapons are safe from interference by the great powers, and thus free to mistreat their citizens as much as they want. I don't think that's the way the world should be any more than you do; it's just that what is and what should be are often two very different things.

Copy that.
But with Ukraine, they didn't really have their OWN nuclear weapons to voluntarily give up.
They were Russian nukes, just as Ukraine was Russian, including Crimea. You can't really class it as voluntary. They never were going to get to keep them.

I reckon, in the future, you will see ethnic cleansing in Ukraine. The Russians living there will be forced across the border, by discrimination.
Now that the Crimea is gone, the west-leaning side will have a built-in majority in the future elections.
Long term, they come out of this ahead.
Stand by to see some MEGA corruption in the years to come.

[Jason]

But it'll be western corruption so it's OK.

[Seth]

Forget your ''safety''.
The best thing that could happen to North Korea would be an attack by a major power.

I'm just pointing out how the world actually is; regimes with nuclear weapons are safe from interference by the great powers, and thus free to mistreat their citizens as much as they want. I don't think that's the way the world should be any more than you do; it's just that what is and what should be are often two very different things.

Copy that.
But with Ukraine, they didn't really have their OWN nuclear weapons to voluntarily give up.

Lie.

They were Russian nukes, just as Ukraine was Russian, including Crimea. You can't really class it as voluntary. They never were going to get to keep them.

Wrong. The nukes Ukraine had belonged to Ukraine the instant the Soviet Union dissolved. Note please the word "Union." That word means, at least legally, that Ukraine was ALWAYS an independent nation that was ostensibly part of the greater Soviet UNION. It is not, was not and has never been part of Russia except by "voluntary" union or imperialistic military domination.

I reckon, in the future, you will see ethnic cleansing in Ukraine. The Russians living there will be forced across the border, by discrimination.

Which was not a problem till Putin stick his finger in the pie. Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity and those of Ukrainian ethnicity were getting along fine prior to Putin's invasion. There was NEVER any threat of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine except that wrought by Putin himself.

Now that the Crimea is gone, the west-leaning side will have a built-in majority in the future elections.
Long term, they come out of this ahead.
Stand by to see some MEGA corruption in the years to come.

Most of Eastern Europe is little more than a collection of kleptocracies left over from the corruption of Soviet communism. Ukraine was among them, particularly after Putin's Puppet became President.

This was about Sevastapol and the military value of Crimea to control of the Black Sea and access to the Sea of Azov. Sevastapol is Russia's ONLY warm-water deep-water port with access to the Med and it is of critical strategic importance to Russian expansion plans. Who controls Crimea controls the Black Sea. Putin was only willing to tolerate Ukraine having Crimea so long as he had a puppet in office who would do what he wanted, like sign a 40 year lease for the naval base.

Putin said he doesn't want to see NATO forces at his naval base.

That's why he took Crimea...to facilitate military movements in the region, which means he has military aspirations towards the West, which is what's really scary.

[Tero]

The Black Sea is Putin's back water puddle. If he wants Western ports, why not just take Finland and Estonia? He can then build a bridge between the two and keep us out of Russia.

[Seth]

The Black Sea is Putin's back water puddle. If he wants Western ports, why not just take Finland and Estonia? He can then build a bridge between the two and keep us out of Russia.

Because he can get away with Crimea, and the northern ports are not necessarily all-weather ports. Having a warm-water port is a huge strategic advantage, which is why he pre-empted NATO establishing a naval presence in Crimea. It also gives him complete control of the Sea of Azov, which secures the Russian border in that area.

However, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all in grave danger right now as well.

[JimC]

The Black Sea is Putin's back water puddle. If he wants Western ports, why not just take Finland and Estonia? He can then build a bridge between the two and keep us out of Russia.

Because he can get away with Crimea, and the northern ports are not necessarily all-weather ports. Having a warm-water port is a huge strategic advantage, which is why he pre-empted NATO establishing a naval presence in Crimea. It also gives him complete control of the Sea of Azov, which secures the Russian border in that area.

However, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all in grave danger right now as well.

I think that is a very big stretch. Putin was able to act in Crimea because it genuinely once was a historic part of Russia, and a very clear majority want that to return (even if the referendum was faked a little, there would still be a majority, from all accounts)

The Baltic states were never historically Russian as such, and there would definitely not be a majority (or even a substantial minority) agitating to be absorbed into Russia.

I think the Crimean mouthful will keep the Bear going for a long time - as you pointed out, it has a clear maritime strategic significance. It was also something Putin could easily get away with. The rest of the Ukraine, and or the Baltic States, not so much...

[mistermack]

I think, apart from the reasons Jim gives above, Putin always has in mind the possibility of separatist movements in Russia.
By this action, he's sent out a clear message that they would be wasting their time even trying.

It's a move that could head off possible future bloodshed, without hardly firing a shot.