Florida Pulse gay club attacked in Orlando

[Scot Dutchy]

Is the "metropolitan community" "church" representative of christianity at large? they could be the flying fish of the christian ichtionomy.

Just one of the many shades or flavours of the thousands of so-called xtian religions. It belongs to this branch:

LGBT-affirming Christianity

Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Church of Denmark
Church of Iceland
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of Scotland
Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
Metropolitan Community Church
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ[8]
United Protestant Church in Belgium

From my link.

[pErvinalia]

- I have tended to use the terms Church and religion interchageably, but my meaning is the same. In my view, religions are constructed by people.

That's the same view as the rest of us. So when people who claim to be adherents to the religion of Islam (or any other religion) are homophobic/misogynistic/bigoted because of their self-professed beliefs about that religion, then that religion itself is bigoted. When we first raised this point, you said that's nonsense, as a religion can't be defined by its holy texts or the teachings of its holy people. It clearly can, by your latest random argument, if its followers base their beliefs from holy people who base their beliefs on the holy texts.

[Hermit]

Where have I said that Islam is not a religion?

You did not. I misremembered and stand corrected.

However, you did say on the one hand that

There is no one thing called Islam. There are thousands of versions of it, millions.

and then speak of the C of E as if it were one thing, to wit

The C of E ... is a homophobic religion.

on the other. Surely you are aware that there are a number of Bishops in the C of E that have admitted to being gay and remained in their respective offices? Among them are Archbishop of York, David Hope, Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark, (who even went so far as blessing a homosexual relationship,) and the Bishop of Edmonton, Peter Wheatley, who has been living openly with his partner for years. In 2003 Jeffrey John was chosen to become the Bishop of Reading. Some conservatives kicked up a stink about the fact that he had been in a relationship with another male priest for many years. Not a problem, that. John was appointed Dean of St Albans instead. In criticising Anglicanism for its homophobia, you generalise to all Anglicans. This mirrors what you said one should not do. Let me remind you.

Some muslims are misogynist right-wingers. In "criticism islam for its misogyny", you generalise to all muslims. You would not do this to any other minority.

A clear case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well.

[Exi5tentialist]

- I have tended to use the terms Church and religion interchageably, but my meaning is the same. In my view, religions are constructed by people.

That's the same view as the rest of us. So when people who claim to be adherents to the religion of Islam (or any other religion) are homophobic/misogynistic/bigoted because of their self-professed beliefs about that religion, then that religion itself is bigoted. When we first raised this point, you said that's nonsense, as a religion can't be defined by its holy texts or the teachings of its holy people. It clearly can, by your latest random argument, if its followers base their beliefs from holy people who base their beliefs on the holy texts.

I said religions are constructed by people, I did not say that one group of people have the right to define the whole of a religion.

Thus the Roman Catholic Church is constructed by Roman Catholics. But Roman Catholics have not constructed Christianity.

Do you get it now? You do seem to be quote-mining my words to support your own biased view of what I have said.

[pErvinalia]

I don't know what you are saying any more, you've changed your story so many times.

The simple fact is that religion is used as a justification for bigotry and violence by huge number of people. If we got rid of the religion, we wouldn't automagically fix the problem, but we would put a dent in it.

[Exi5tentialist]

Where have I said that Islam is not a religion?

You did not. I misremembered and stand corrected.

However, you did say on the one hand that

There is no one thing called Islam. There are thousands of versions of it, millions.

and then speak of the C of E as if it were one thing, to wit

The C of E ... is a homophobic religion.

on the other. Surely you are aware that there are a number of Bishops in the C of E that have admitted to being gay and remained in their respective offices? Among them are Archbishop of York, David Hope, Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark, (who even went so far as blessing a homosexual relationship,) and the Bishop of Edmonton, Peter Wheatley, who has been living openly with his partner for years. In 2003 Jeffrey John was chosen to become the Bishop of Reading. Some conservatives kicked up a stink about the fact that he had been in a relationship with another male priest for many years. Not a problem, that. John was appointed Dean of St Albans instead. In criticising Anglicanism for its homophobia, you generalise to all Anglicans. This mirrors what you said one should not do. Let me remind you.

Some muslims are misogynist right-wingers. In "criticism islam for its misogyny", you generalise to all muslims. You would not do this to any other minority.

A clear case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

While I see no religion as monolithic, I do regard some of their undercurrents to be general trends. So, yes, we can say that Islam and Christianity, splintered as they both are and despite exceptions to the contrary, possess very strong streaks of homophobia and more expansively, sexism. I dare say that both streaks are less pronounced among atheists while allowing that atheism is not a monolithic entity either and that there are homophobes and sexists among its members as well.

The Church of England has homophobic policies. Gay men are not allowed to marry each other in the C of E. Being allowed to have same-gender relationships is not equality when you are not allowed to marry as heterosexuals are. That is a homophobic policy. I have not criticised Anglicanism, I criticised the Church of England. You are telling me I should not do somehting I have not done. You say I have been hypocritical, but you have not demonstrated where, in fact you have actually told an untruth about me "criticising Anglicanism". I do not know whether you have told this untruth deliberately or not, either way it misrepresents me. Given that you misremembered one thing I said, I am sorry to say I wonder if you are creating a false view of what I am saying because it suits your hitherto unchallenged prejudices, which you are having trouble defending.

And frankly I do not have so much of a problme with saying that "Islam and Christianity possess very strong streaks of homophobia". What I object to is the way people take a statement like that and turn it into "islam and Christianity are homophobic". That is just wrong and it should be challenged, in fact I see it as being the same failing as occurs when people stereotype all gay people or all women. Apart from anything else it does not allow for change, and change is the one thing that is needed where religions are being used for oppressive reasons.

[Exi5tentialist]

I don't know what you are saying any more, you've changed your story so many times.

Where have I changed my story? I actually haven't, which is the reason why you can't show us where I have.

The simple fact is that religion is used as a justification for bigotry and violence by huge number of people. If we got rid of the religion, we wouldn't automagically fix the problem, but we would put a dent in it.

That is the most genocidal thing anyone has said to date in this thread.

Let me make this clear. We do not need to get rid of religion. Religions contain millions of people and we are not genocidal maniacs. We do not need to get rid of religion any more than Omar Mateen needed to get rid of gay sexuality. People define themselves by abstracts and you do not immunize yourself from criticism by pretending that muslims are not islam or gay people are not gay sexuality.

Your philosophy is vile, sniping and really, really childish. You have nothing useful to contribute. Now why don't you just go away and live your bitter life on your own without inflicting your vile ideas on decent people? 50 poeple are dead, and this is the shit you come out with.

Just fuck off.

[Exi5tentialist]

Is the "metropolitan community" "church" representative of christianity at large? they could be the flying fish of the christian ichtionomy.

Just one of the many shades or flavours of the thousands of so-called xtian religions. It belongs to this branch:

LGBT-affirming Christianity

Affirming Pentecostal Church International
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Church of Denmark
Church of Iceland
Church of Norway
Church of Sweden
Church of Scotland
Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
Metropolitan Community Church
Protestant Church in the Netherlands
United Church of Canada
United Church of Christ[8]
United Protestant Church in Belgium

From my link.

Thanks, but the Church of Scotland does not allow equal marriage. I don't know about the others. The MCC definitely does allow it.

[pErvinalia]

I don't know what you are saying any more, you've changed your story so many times.

Where have I changed my story? I actually haven't, which is the reason why you can't show us where I have.

I've pointed it out every time you've done it across multiple threads. You've repeatedly ignored most of those posts.

The simple fact is that religion is used as a justification for bigotry and violence by huge number of people. If we got rid of the religion, we wouldn't automagically fix the problem, but we would put a dent in it.

That is the most genocidal thing anyone has said to date in this thread.

Oh ffs, you really are a hyperbolic nonsense generator.

Let me make this clear. We do not need to get rid of religion. Religions contain millions of people and we are not genocidal maniacs. We do not need to get rid of religion any more than Omar Mateen needed to get rid of gay sexuality. People define themselves by abstracts and you do not immunize yourself from criticism by pretending that muslims are not islam or gay people are not gay sexuality.

I didn't mean literally getting rid of religion. I meant naturally moving away from religion through education and challenging irrational supernatural views. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your hyperbolic concern trolling world view.

Your philosophy is vile, sniping and really, really childish.

Says they guy who labels anyone who discusses the concepts of rape, paedophilia and religion as rapists, paedophiles and islamophobes.

You have nothing useful to contribute.

I, like a lot of others, have contribed plenty. And in most cases you've ignored anything that actually challenges your randomly slapped together "philosophy" of the world. You ignore challenging ideas, and respond to other ideas with empty rhetoric and lazy labels.

Now why don't you just go away and live your bitter life on your own without inflicting your vile ideas on decent people? 50 poeple are dead, and this is the shit you come out with.

Says the guy who got all outraged earlier that I criticised the killer. YOU are the one who gives more of a fuck about the killer via his religion than the people murdered. The exact same way your idiotic "philosophy" sees you conflate sex with a 15 and half year old with a 6 year old. It's people like you who actually do the most harm to victims by dismissing the seriousness of it and the lived reality of the victims, by wibbling from your sheltered basement with butchered "philosophical" concepts.

Just fuck off.

No. Frankly, I'm going to shove a fucking boot up your arse while ever you open your privileged gob to spout about shit you clearly have no idea about (that is, both the real lived world, and philosophy).

[Svartalf]

Is the "metropolitan community" "church" representative of christianity at large? they could be the flying fish of the christian ichtionomy.

It has thousands of people in it.

This is not to mention the thousands of christians who do not attach themselves to any church.

which doesn't mean much in an umbrella belief that is about a billion strong

[Exi5tentialist]

Is the "metropolitan community" "church" representative of christianity at large? they could be the flying fish of the christian ichtionomy.

It has thousands of people in it.

This is not to mention the thousands of christians who do not attach themselves to any church.

which doesn't mean much in an umbrella belief that is about a billion strong

And that is the process by which stereotyping occurs

[Exi5tentialist]

I don't know what you are saying any more, you've changed your story so many times.

Where have I changed my story? I actually haven't, which is the reason why you can't show us where I have.

I've pointed it out every time you've done it across multiple threads. You've repeatedly ignored most of those posts.

The simple fact is that religion is used as a justification for bigotry and violence by huge number of people. If we got rid of the religion, we wouldn't automagically fix the problem, but we would put a dent in it.

That is the most genocidal thing anyone has said to date in this thread.

Oh ffs, you really are a hyperbolic nonsense generator.

Let me make this clear. We do not need to get rid of religion. Religions contain millions of people and we are not genocidal maniacs. We do not need to get rid of religion any more than Omar Mateen needed to get rid of gay sexuality. People define themselves by abstracts and you do not immunize yourself from criticism by pretending that muslims are not islam or gay people are not gay sexuality.

I didn't mean literally getting rid of religion. I meant naturally moving away from religion through education and challenging irrational supernatural views. I'm sorry that doesn't fit your hyperbolic concern trolling world view.

Your philosophy is vile, sniping and really, really childish.

Says they guy who labels anyone who discusses the concepts of rape, paedophilia and religion as rapists, paedophiles and islamophobes.

You have nothing useful to contribute.

I, like a lot of others, have contribed plenty. And in most cases you've ignored anything that actually challenges your randomly slapped together "philosophy" of the world. You ignore challenging ideas, and respond to other ideas with empty rhetoric and lazy labels.

Now why don't you just go away and live your bitter life on your own without inflicting your vile ideas on decent people? 50 poeple are dead, and this is the shit you come out with.

Says the guy who got all outraged earlier that I criticised the killer. YOU are the one who gives more of a fuck about the killer via his religion than the people murdered. The exact same way your idiotic "philosophy" sees you conflate sex with a 15 and half year old with a 6 year old. It's people like you who actually do the most harm to victims by dismissing the seriousness of it and the lived reality of the victims, by wibbling from your sheltered basement with butchered "philosophical" concepts.

Just fuck off.

No. Frankly, I'm going to shove a fucking boot up your arse while ever you open your privileged gob to spout about shit you clearly have no idea about (that is, both the real lived world, and philosophy).

Stop lying and twisting every single thing I say to a complete misrepresentation of it. You know perfectly well why I had a go at you and it was NOT because you "criticised the killer". If you're prepared to lie about what I say to that extent I'm not surprised you get so easily confused about the simple concepts I have been explaining. Why don't you type less, and think more? And stop inventing reasons to attack what I've said, it's really childish.

[pErvinalia]

If a billion people call themselves followers of Christianity, then they are followers of Christianity. Even you had to admit this early.

[Exi5tentialist]

If a billion people call themselves followers of Christianity, then they are followers of Christianity.

Which Christianity? There are billions of them.

Even you had to admit this early.

What does that even mean?

[pErvinalia]

You know perfectly well why I had a go at you and it was NOT because you "criticised the killer".

Of course it was, because your justification at having a go at me was so utterly illogical. I made a clear distinction between mental illnesses and had made the point earlier about the conservative false dichotomy splitting the world into mentally ill vs mentally healthy. You totally ignored the distinction I made. Why did you do it if not because you were emotional about your perception that everyone was attacking Islam?

And stop inventing reasons to attack what I've said, it's really childish.

What you say is offensive, so I will continue to attack it. As I said, your idiotic "philosophy" leads you to divide the world into simplistic groupings. People who discuss sexual assault, paedophilia and religion are rapists, paedophiles and islamophobes. Someone having sex with a 15.5 yr old is just as heinous as someone having sex with a 2 yr old. Can't you see how fucking offensive that is to the real children of sexual assault? You have a sheltered simplistic view of the world. You ask me to think more? I ask you to wibble less and get outside of your navel.