Where's Red Celt when you want a laugh!?

[Rum]

Well that isn't going to happen is it. At best they will get even more autonomy.

What gets me is what I suspect is a misunderstanding at the heart of this. Many independence minded Scots I suspect think that the English see Scotland as a subject nation - one of the last remnants of our colonial past, a possession and so forth. The reality is that the average English person - probably the vast majority, think of Scotland simply as an equal, if smaller national partner. This is even more the case with devolution and the Scottish powers to run pretty much all of the country that have evolved over the last few decades. Given that I can only think that Nationalism really is the name of the game for many of them.

[ronmcd]

I have no idea if you consider yourself a nationalist or not. You certainly write like one.
But you've made it very clear over and over again, that you don't like the English political party leaders, or their governments, or their policies.

Have I?

There's some serious projection going on here I think. I rarely mention English or England etc, and I certainly don't attack "English" anything. You see, Westminster isn't England. Clegg Cameron Miliband are Westminster politicians, as are/were Brown Cook Smith Gove Kennedy Mundell ( ) Campbell, etc etc. Do I dislike their "Englishness"? Or do I dislike the system, it's politics, it's corruption, and it's greed?

None of that is "England". That you think it is says, once again, where the nationalist lies in these discussions.

[John_fi_Skye]

Some of the more recent posts on this thread are offensively anti-Scottish. In spite of that, I maintain that I personally neither hate nor dislike English people, and I believe that goes for most Scots. For me - for us - as I and at least one other person have now said several times, that's not what this is about.

But yes - since it's been put this way - I'll be very pleased if we DO get to fuck off.

[ronmcd]

Well that isn't going to happen is it. At best they will get even more autonomy.

What gets me is what I suspect is a misunderstanding at the heart of this. Many independence minded Scots I suspect think that the English see Scotland as a subject nation - one of the last remnants of our colonial past, a possession and so forth. The reality is that the average English person - probably the vast majority, think of Scotland simply as an equal, if smaller national partner. This is even more the case with devolution and the Scottish powers to run pretty much all of the country that have evolved over the last few decades. Given that I can only think that Nationalism really is the name of the game for many of them.

I'm sure you are right, the average English person is not at all the problem. And those voting yes aren't voting to get away from England or the English, it's about having control over the policies. Westminster is becoming terrifying, and - by pure luck really - we are in a position to do something about it.

Remember, the referendum would be irrelevant if there were a serious move to change the constitutional situation *across* the UK, with a federal system. Independence would never happen. But within the power structure of the Westminster parties, and the institution of Westminster itself? Never happen.

Btw, devolution only gives control (subject to Westminster not deciding to roll it back at any moment) over some areas, it really is not "run pretty much all of the country", the important levers of control, the economy, taxation, the areas that interest many in Scotland, social policy and funding, spending vast sums on nukes ... they are all reserved and will remain so.

Interesting aside - The Lords unilaterally decided to take back some powers over Scottish affairs, and the result is Holyrood is no longer in charge of renewable obligation certificates, which are important in encouraging energy suppliers to focus on renewable sources. Power was taken away, last minute, in a Lords amendment to a Westminster bill.

Holyrood has been good, no doubt. But it can be taken away. Things are going to get very complicated - and costly - with the offers from the various parties to devolve more IF we vote no. Because the new powers require new functions and administration, with costs, and the calls for a reduction or scrapping of the Barnett formula will be impossible for Miliband or Cameron to ignore.

I fear for Holyrood a year or two after a no vote. Then again I fear for UK in a year or two.

[ronmcd]

Some of the more recent posts on this thread are offensively anti-Scottish. In spite of that, I maintain that I personally neither hate nor dislike English people, and I believe that goes for most Scots. For me - for us - as I and at least one other person have now said several times, that's not what this is about.

But yes - since it's been put this way - I'll be very pleased if we DO get to fuck off.

[ronmcd]

While I don't doubt the sincerity of the posters here I do think there is some anti-Englishness in the Scottish psyche. One example is why do you hate our national footy team, it's not like we wont lose anyway without a third to half of Scottish footy fans willing it. Scotland has had a great impact on the world and that is because of the union. You would be just another Belgium without it, with England being another Portugal. This is why I want a yes vote to happen, not that that would still stop quite a number of Scotland's people blaming England for most of their woes. I'm just sick and tried of it to be honest and after a yes vote It wont bother me any more.

We don't hate the English football team. I grew up in the 70's with the English football team as *rivals* to the Scottish team.

It's historic football rivalry.

This is why people in Scotland were horrified by the story that a couple of the national papers (not the Scottish editions) ran before the Commonwealth games, suggesting Scots would boo the English competitors, some of the athletes were reported to be concerned. Why the fuck would that happen? Of course it didn't. Now, if it were the England football team, in a football stadium, with Scotland fans ... that would be different. Football rivalry, very specifically.

The referendum isn't about blaming England. It isn't about England.

[ronmcd]

I have no idea if you consider yourself a nationalist or not. You certainly write like one.
But you've made it very clear over and over again, that you don't like the English political party leaders, or their governments, or their policies.

When posters from England, Wales, presumably Northern Ireland too, post on various websites or write to the newspapers attacking Nick Clegg for being a lying tosser, who has abandoned principle for power, is it only the yes supporters in Scotland who really* dislike him because he's English?

Similarly, when posters from all over the UK say Cameron is lining the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor, and Osborne is selling off national assets so his pals can make huge profits, or Miliband is a slightly diluted new labour tory ... is it only us who are voting yes who are really* saying these things cos he's English?



*not really

[John_fi_Skye]

I keep reading your posts on here, Ron, and wishing I'd written them.

[John_fi_Skye]

PS I don't know wtf Patrick Stewart's drinking, but it doesn't look like a nice malt.

[Svartalf]

PS I don't know wtf Patrick Stewart's drinking, but it doesn't look like a nice malt.

Who's that person and why do you say so?

[mistermack]

When posters from England, Wales, presumably Northern Ireland too, post on various websites or write to the newspapers attacking Nick Clegg for being a lying tosser, who has abandoned principle for power, is it only the yes supporters in Scotland who really* dislike him because he's English?

Similarly, when posters from all over the UK say Cameron is lining the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor, and Osborne is selling off national assets so his pals can make huge profits, or Miliband is a slightly diluted new labour tory ... is it only us who are voting yes who are really* saying these things cos he's English?

You seem to have missed the bleeding obvious, which is that when they post, they don't do it in the context of breaking up the UK. There's a huge difference, between your posts, and theirs.
Are they proposing to break from Scotland? No.
I often say what slimy low-life Alex Salmond is, but you wouldn't interpret that as a dislike of Scots, because I WANT to stay united with the Scots. That's the difference between you and me that gives your underlying motives away.

You PRETEND that it's all about local decision making. That's just a fucking lie. You're not fooling anyone. It's about being a little Scotlander.

John at least gives his argument truthfully, but I don't believe a word of yours.
Especially when the facts PROVE that the Nationalists are perfectly happy for Brussels to be making more and more of their decisions, and that they desperately want the English Chancellor to be in charge of their money.

You have every right to want whatever you want to want, but your argument to persuade others is a dishonest joke. Why don't you just tell the truth? You don't mind having the English as neighbors, but you don't like them as partners, and you want Scotland for the Scots?

[Rum]

I have no idea if you consider yourself a nationalist or not. You certainly write like one.
But you've made it very clear over and over again, that you don't like the English political party leaders, or their governments, or their policies.

When posters from England, Wales, presumably Northern Ireland too, post on various websites or write to the newspapers attacking Nick Clegg for being a lying tosser, who has abandoned principle for power, is it only the yes supporters in Scotland who really* dislike him because he's English?

Similarly, when posters from all over the UK say Cameron is lining the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor, and Osborne is selling off national assets so his pals can make huge profits, or Miliband is a slightly diluted new labour tory ... is it only us who are voting yes who are really* saying these things cos he's English?

*not really

As someone who lives close to the border and goes up to Glasgow and Edinburgh fairly frequently I think I can tell you first hand that if you go into a pub in Glasgow and speak with my middle class English voice you encounter hostility immediately and frankly I wouldn't go into one when they have had a skin full on a weekend evening. Conversely a Scot in England is always in my experience welcomed and has his back slapped - metaphorically or otherwise.

[JimC]

I have no idea if you consider yourself a nationalist or not. You certainly write like one.
But you've made it very clear over and over again, that you don't like the English political party leaders, or their governments, or their policies.

When posters from England, Wales, presumably Northern Ireland too, post on various websites or write to the newspapers attacking Nick Clegg for being a lying tosser, who has abandoned principle for power, is it only the yes supporters in Scotland who really* dislike him because he's English?

Similarly, when posters from all over the UK say Cameron is lining the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor, and Osborne is selling off national assets so his pals can make huge profits, or Miliband is a slightly diluted new labour tory ... is it only us who are voting yes who are really* saying these things cos he's English?

*not really

As someone who lives close to the border and goes up to Glasgow and Edinburgh fairly frequently I think I can tell you first hand that if you go into a pub in Glasgow and speak with my middle class English voice you encounter hostility immediately and frankly I wouldn't go into one when they have had a skin full on a weekend evening. Conversely a Scot in England is always in my experience welcomed and has his back slapped - metaphorically or otherwise.

That's because they'll think you are a posh, Tory voting, capitalist pig, Rum, not because you are English...

What about if you spoke broad Yorkshire?

[Rum]

Jim - The Class system, still a reality here, despite some erosion, combined with the huge variety of regional accents and the often resulting stereotyping lead to subtleties, complications and nuances in social interaction that are at times truly mind bending, especially to an outsider, who probably has no idea of the subtext that can be going on in an ordinary conversation between two people from these isles!

[ronmcd]

When posters from England, Wales, presumably Northern Ireland too, post on various websites or write to the newspapers attacking Nick Clegg for being a lying tosser, who has abandoned principle for power, is it only the yes supporters in Scotland who really* dislike him because he's English?

Similarly, when posters from all over the UK say Cameron is lining the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor, and Osborne is selling off national assets so his pals can make huge profits, or Miliband is a slightly diluted new labour tory ... is it only us who are voting yes who are really* saying these things cos he's English?

You seem to have missed the bleeding obvious, which is that when they post, they don't do it in the context of breaking up the UK. There's a huge difference, between your posts, and theirs.
Are they proposing to break from Scotland? No.
I often say what slimy low-life Alex Salmond is, but you wouldn't interpret that as a dislike of Scots, because I WANT to stay united with the Scots. That's the difference between you and me that gives your underlying motives away.

That makes no sense. There would at least be some logic if I were some flag waving lifelong SNP member who occupied the nutter fringe of the Scottish nationalists for years. But I've never been a nationalist, never voted SNP in any general election, don't have any ideological attachment to an independent Scotland. I'm a labour supporter, and I'll vote labour hopefully in an independent election, if they stop being tory lite. Independence will revitalise (Scottish) Labour.

You PRETEND that it's all about local decision making. That's just a fucking lie. You're not fooling anyone. It's about being a little Scotlander.

John at least gives his argument truthfully, but I don't believe a word of yours.

Well, as I'd discovered before in these threads, you're just not worth my time. I've spent a long time answering these Scottish threads, consistently saying it is not about anti englishness, arguing against the abuse aimed at Salmond, and often abuse aimed at Scotland. And here you are again, just outright accusing my of lying about what I fucking think?

Especially when the facts PROVE that the Nationalists are perfectly happy for Brussels to be making more and more of their decisions, and that they desperately want the English Chancellor to be in charge of their money.

Complete nonsense of course. Staying in EU is simply continuity - as the rest of UK will want to, but you're not accusing the UK of the same thing, just Scotland? And no, the UK chancellor (not English, btw) will not be in charge. An independent Scotland would either be in a formal currency union with agreed levels of debt etc for both parties, or Scotland will have a different currency and won't have the Bank of England as lender of last resort. And independence does not equal SNP. Other flavours are available. Hell, we could leave EU before UK if that's what the people decided. As it is, we will likely be dragged out by a decision based on fear of UKIP at Westminster.

You have every right to want whatever you want to want, but your argument to persuade others is a dishonest joke. Why don't you just tell the truth? You don't mind having the English as neighbors, but you don't like them as partners, and you want Scotland for the Scots?

That's ethnicity youre talking about there. Independence isn't about ethnicity, it's about political control being exercised in Scotland. Scottish independence is about civic nationalism. That's why English people are voting yes, and many other nationalities who make Scotland their home. I seem to remember we had a thread about SNP proposing increased (20k - 24k I think) immigration. Do I hate the immigrants too? Or do I just hate English people?

I think it's genuinely disgusting that you are outright calling me a bigot and an ethnic nationalist, and liar.