Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[mistermack]

Except that unborn people cannot steal anything. Holding them responsible for the actions of their forefathers is no different than executing you for a murder you father committed. This is the logic of Original Sin.

Except that nobody is holding them responsible for that.
The palestinians are simply saying that you are part of the political entity that is opressing us, and keeping the stolen land. Therefore you are a legitimate target.

I suppose the logic of your argument is that the Palestinians should not resist. They should just tamely accept any crumbs that Israel stoops to toss in their direction.
Or that they should move out, because they are an inconvenience and embarrassment to the jews. That is what the Israelis are working on, 365 days a year.

And that is the only option that you are prepared to say is moral.
You don't like attacks on civilians. What's your advice to the Palestinians then? I could do with a good laugh.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thumpa

Killing civilians is never right. By anyone. That point is not at all obscure and I agree.
I have said all along, though, that I understand why Palestinians do what they do. Not that I approve.
But my approval for the Israelis is even less.

A year or three back, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip in retaliation for a few rocket attacks, they shelled civilians homes and killed over 100 civilians, and in the middle of that, they shelled a Palestinian hospital.

Now, I do not approve of the rocket attacks. But they have never been very effective, and little damage is done and even fewer lives lost. Does this justify the massive retaliation? That is exactly the tactic used by the Nazis in WWII against partisans. Israel has much to answer for. They are using the same tactics the Nazis used, and after the holocaust, they should be the people least likely to imitate the Nazi assholes.

Nor will their retaliations stop the conflict. It did not stop the partisans fighting the Nazis, and it will not stop the Palestinians fighting for their right to their own homeland.

Indeed, the Israeli reaction was disproportionate. I don't think retaliations, on either side, will stop this conflict.

I wish the Israelis would drop their bullshit about "yes, we're in favor of a Palestinian state but -- " and be done with it.

It's clear to anyone with half-a-brain that only Palestinian statehood has a chance of being a permanent solution (and even that is admittedly a small chance, due to the hatreds that have been engendered).

[Thumpalumpacus]

Except that unborn people cannot steal anything. Holding them responsible for the actions of their forefathers is no different than executing you for a murder you father committed. This is the logic of Original Sin.

Except that nobody is holding them responsible for that.
The palestinians are simply saying that you are part of the political entity that is opressing us, and keeping the stolen land. Therefore you are a legitimate target.

I suppose the logic of your argument is that the Palestinians should not resist. They should just tamely accept any crumbs that Israel stoops to toss in their direction.
Or that they should move out, because they are an inconvenience and embarrassment to the jews. That is what the Israelis are working on, 365 days a year.

And that is the only option that you are prepared to say is moral.
You don't like attacks on civilians. What's your advice to the Palestinians then? I could do with a good laugh.

I'm not sure if there is any solution. I do know that simply killing people doesn't solve anything. As I mention to Groper, the clearest path that I can see involves the Israelis accepting a Palestinian state, and even that isn't certain to heal past grievances -- nor does it seem very likely any time soon, given Israeli dissembling about it.

But, I don't see that continual violence will help that aim, because so long as any nation is being attacked -- rightly or wrongly -- they are not going to make any concessions that will strengthen their attackers.

Hope that gave you the laugh you needed. Relax, it's only a discussion, and can be held lightly, too.

[Blind groper]

It's clear to anyone with half-a-brain that only Palestinian statehood has a chance of being a permanent solution (and even that is admittedly a small chance, due to the hatreds that have been engendered).

Thumpa

Good to see we have agreement.

[mistermack]

I'm not sure if there is any solution. I do know that simply killing people doesn't solve anything. As I mention to Groper, the clearest path that I can see involves the Israelis accepting a Palestinian state, and even that isn't certain to heal past grievances -- nor does it seem very likely any time soon, given Israeli dissembling about it.

But, I don't see that continual violence will help that aim, because so long as any nation is being attacked -- rightly or wrongly -- they are not going to make any concessions that will strengthen their attackers.

Hope that gave you the laugh you needed. Relax, it's only a discussion, and can be held lightly, too.

So even thought you've tried to disguise it, your advice to the Palestinians is that they should not resist. They should just tamely accept any crumbs that Israel stoops to toss in their direction.
Or that they should move out, because they are an inconvenience and embarrassment to the jews.

You see, you can't cop out of an opinion just by saying what they SHOULDN'T do. Because all you leave them is the above.

So you think that somehow, that will do the trick eh?
You have great faith in the goodness and generosity of the Israeli state I must say. I can't IMAGINE where you get it from.

In any case that's not a genuine option. As I've said before, the Israelis will keep the pot boiling, WHATEVER it takes. They know what to do, to keep a bit of resistance coming from the Palestinians.
Keep bulldozing homes, keep stealing land, keep arresting people at random, and holding them for years.
It's dead easy for them, they have the Palestinians at their mercy. And they don't intend to show any.

And no US president will make them, because they have every one bought and paid for even before they are elected.

By the way, I couldn't be more relaxed about it, I'm just glad it's not me. It's a debate to me, that's all.
I said I could do with a laugh, as a challenge to you, which I think you tried to dodge by just saying what the Palestinians SHOULDN'T do. I think that doing nothing, and just taking it, IS a ludicrous suggestion.

If you can tell me what they SHOULD do, that isn't ludicrous, then big respect.