Across the US, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition

[Coito ergo sum]

Ok, let me rephrase that. From a constitutional viewpoint this is about the freedom to assemble and worship freely. Whatever the real motivations are, and people's perceptions of this are another story. If they were prevented from building a mosque because others were offended by it, it would be a violation of the establishment clause, not a violation of their free speech rights.

I accept that it is also about freedom to assemble and to worship freely.

But those freedoms are not unchangeable (they are only in the US constitution, and were not carved on tablets of stone by the lord god almighty ) .......they are rights which folk grant to each other on the strict quid pro quo that they will be reciprocated.

No no. There is no "quid pro quo" of reciprocation. Under the American system freedom of and from religion in the First Amendment is freedom from governmental interference. The City of NY can't deny them the right to build the mosque for religious reasons. They could deny them the right to build the mosque for secular reasons, if there were any real secular reasons.

However, you, me and other individuals are under no obligation to respect their right to worship freely, not in general anyway. We have the complete and unfettered right to say what we want about Islam, Cordoba, the Mosque or whatever. We can picket, march, demonstrate, scream, yell and whatever - and that is our freedom of speech right. They have the right to ignore us.

If, however, they were really interested in "outreach" would they not take the opposition's protests seriously and give it respect? If their goal really was to build bridges, why would they ignore the protests, particularly when poll numbers place overwhelming majorities of Americans against construction of the mosque?

I would argue it is stupid not to treat muslims differently because they are a threat to the US way of life. The US (Govt and people) tends to be naive when it comes to some things. and religion is one of those things. The fundamental reason that Popes were chased out of Govts and even sometimes countries in Europe is that no man can serve 2 masters - and for the Nation State that makes those who offer their first loyalty elsewhere as the enemy. Applies to other Nation States as well as religions and also to various 'isms.

True. The American concept of separation of church and state was brand new in the mid-to-late 1700's. It was almost unthinkable a few decades previously in Europe. However, freedom of Muslims to practice their crud-bucket of a false cult is only a threat to our way of life and our country if we (a) let them infuse their filthy Sha'ria into our legal system, or (b) let them shut us up for blaspheming their nonexistent deity and the False Prophet Mohammet.

[Coito ergo sum]

By many accounts, the man who could blunt the power of that coup is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the religious leader behind the planned Islamic Center near Ground Zero. The imam has been surprisingly mum on the issue while he travels in the Middle East. What message of faith could he offer to Muslims and non-Muslims alike that could turn this moment of division into a time of healing?

As many have pointed out, the controversy over the "ground zero mosque" is a false one. The project is legal to build, and it should remain legal. That does not mean, however, that any concern about building a mosque so close to ground zero is synonymous with bigotry. The true scandal here is that Muslim moderates have been so abysmally lacking in candor about the nature of their faith and so slow to disavow its genuine (and growing) pathologies--leading perfectly sane and tolerant people to worry whether Muslim moderation even exists.

Despite his past equivocations on this issue, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf could dispel these fears in a single paragraph:

"Like all decent people, I am horrified by much that goes on in the name of 'Islam,' and I consider it a duty of all moderate Muslims to recognize that many of the doctrines espoused in the Qur'an and hadith present some unique liabilities at this moment in history. Our traditional ideas about martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, apostasy, and the status of women must be abandoned, as they are proving disastrous in the 21st century. Many of Islam's critics have fully justified concerns about the state of discourse in parts of the Muslim world--where it is a tissue of conspiracy theories, genocidal ravings regarding the Jews, and the most abject, triumphalist fantasies about conquering the world for the glory of Allah. While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith. Hence, we do not tend to see vast numbers of Jews and Christians calling for the murder of apostates today. This is not true of Islam, and there is simply no honest way of denying this shocking disparity. We are members of a faith community that appears more concerned about harmless cartoons than about the daily atrocities committed in its name--and no one suffers from this stupidity and barbarism more than our fellow Muslims. Islam must grow up. And Muslim moderates like ourselves must be the first to defend the rights of novelists, cartoonists, and public intellectuals to criticize all religious faiths, including our own."
These are the sorts of sentiments that should be the litmus test for Muslim moderation. Find an imam who will speak this way, and gather followers who think this way, and I'll volunteer to cut the ribbon on his mosque in lower Manhattan.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... ation.html

[Robert_S]

By many accounts, the man who could blunt the power of that coup is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the religious leader behind the planned Islamic Center near Ground Zero. The imam has been surprisingly mum on the issue while he travels in the Middle East. What message of faith could he offer to Muslims and non-Muslims alike that could turn this moment of division into a time of healing?

As many have pointed out, the controversy over the "ground zero mosque" is a false one. The project is legal to build, and it should remain legal. That does not mean, however, that any concern about building a mosque so close to ground zero is synonymous with bigotry. The true scandal here is that Muslim moderates have been so abysmally lacking in candor about the nature of their faith and so slow to disavow its genuine (and growing) pathologies--leading perfectly sane and tolerant people to worry whether Muslim moderation even exists.

Despite his past equivocations on this issue, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf could dispel these fears in a single paragraph:

"Like all decent people, I am horrified by much that goes on in the name of 'Islam,' and I consider it a duty of all moderate Muslims to recognize that many of the doctrines espoused in the Qur'an and hadith present some unique liabilities at this moment in history. Our traditional ideas about martyrdom, jihad, blasphemy, apostasy, and the status of women must be abandoned, as they are proving disastrous in the 21st century. Many of Islam's critics have fully justified concerns about the state of discourse in parts of the Muslim world--where it is a tissue of conspiracy theories, genocidal ravings regarding the Jews, and the most abject, triumphalist fantasies about conquering the world for the glory of Allah. While the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity also contain terrible passages, it has been many centuries since they truly informed the mainstream faith. Hence, we do not tend to see vast numbers of Jews and Christians calling for the murder of apostates today. This is not true of Islam, and there is simply no honest way of denying this shocking disparity. We are members of a faith community that appears more concerned about harmless cartoons than about the daily atrocities committed in its name--and no one suffers from this stupidity and barbarism more than our fellow Muslims. Islam must grow up. And Muslim moderates like ourselves must be the first to defend the rights of novelists, cartoonists, and public intellectuals to criticize all religious faiths, including our own."
These are the sorts of sentiments that should be the litmus test for Muslim moderation. Find an imam who will speak this way, and gather followers who think this way, and I'll volunteer to cut the ribbon on his mosque in lower Manhattan.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... ation.html

This!

[kiki5711]

If some of you think that muslims just want to be a part of everything and everywhere cause they want to exercize their freedom of religion, you're fooled easier than I think. Building a mosque is just the first step to expanding their everlasting kingdom of Islam on earth.
If you think I'm just talking out of paranoia think twice.

When I was in the church that is exactly what we were told. How to overcome the world with love for god. To become a part of the neighborhood, enter one foot at a time, then set the standard for everyone.

With Islam what do you think that standard will be?

[sandinista]

Same as the christians did and continue to do. Churches built on top of pagan temples, on other persons sacred land etc. There are small towns around here with more churches than any other large buildings, one every two blocks or so. No more churches, no more mosques.

[Coito ergo sum]

I heard that Daisy Khan on the radio last night. What a flaming trollop and a lying bitch. Fuck her and that mosque. In sum, her statements and answers to questions demonstrated that what that Cordoba group of monsters wants is tolerance for Islam, and only Islam. Skank.

[kiki5711]

Same as the christians did and continue to do. Churches built on top of pagan temples, on other persons sacred land etc. There are small towns around here with more churches than any other large buildings, one every two blocks or so. No more churches, no more mosques.

SAndi,

Don't you think the christians have enough influence already all over the place without adding islam to the mix? Are we not hoping to get christianity OUT of schools, and the governement/courts etc...? and now you want to let freedom ring with Islam as well?

[sandinista]

What you talking bout Willis?

[Coito ergo sum]

Same as the christians did and continue to do. Churches built on top of pagan temples, on other persons sacred land etc. There are small towns around here with more churches than any other large buildings, one every two blocks or so. No more churches, no more mosques.

SAndi,

Don't you think the christians have enough influence already all over the place without adding islam to the mix? Are we not hoping to get christianity OUT of schools, and the governement/courts etc...? and now you want to let freedom ring with Islam as well?

Compared to the "Muslim world" religion is, in fact, out of the schools and governments/courts, etc. The kind of thing we're fighting about here in the States is "can they say a prayer at legislative and city council meetings?" Can they use the words "under god" in oaths? Can they put up this cross or that religious symbol, etc. In parts of the Muslim world, they still need to overcome taxes on non-Muslim religions, Christians being run out of Lebanon, Jews not being able to build Temples anywhere in Saudi Arabia, non-Muslims being completely barred from even setting foot in certain places in the "Muslim World," women being publicly beaten for showing an ankle, women being forced to wear certain garments, women being deprived educations, women having their vaginas mutilated, gays being hanged and otherwise executed......and the list goes on and on....

[RuleBritannia]

SAndi,

Don't you think the christians have enough influence already all over the place without adding islam to the mix? Are we not hoping to get christianity OUT of schools, and the governement/courts etc...? and now you want to let freedom ring with Islam as well?

WTF?

[Coito ergo sum]

With Islam what do you think that standard will be?

Tolerance for Islam. Intolerance of everyone else, including non-believers.

[sandinista]

Same as the christians did and continue to do. Churches built on top of pagan temples, on other persons sacred land etc. There are small towns around here with more churches than any other large buildings, one every two blocks or so. No more churches, no more mosques.

SAndi,

Don't you think the christians have enough influence already all over the place without adding islam to the mix? Are we not hoping to get christianity OUT of schools, and the governement/courts etc...? and now you want to let freedom ring with Islam as well?

Compared to the "Muslim world" religion is, in fact, out of the schools and governments/courts, etc. The kind of thing we're fighting about here in the States is "can they say a prayer at legislative and city council meetings?" Can they use the words "under god" in oaths? Can they put up this cross or that religious symbol, etc. In parts of the Muslim world, they still need to overcome taxes on non-Muslim religions, Christians being run out of Lebanon, Jews not being able to build Temples anywhere in Saudi Arabia, non-Muslims being completely barred from even setting foot in certain places in the "Muslim World," women being publicly beaten for showing an ankle, women being forced to wear certain garments, women being deprived educations, women having their vaginas mutilated, gays being hanged and otherwise executed......and the list goes on and on....

Whats your point? Do you want a list of all the bad things christians have done and continue to do? A good start would be Michel Onfray's book "In Defense of Atheism" because I can't be bothered to type all that shit out...perhaps the best recent book on the subject of atheism and the scourge of christianity and islam.

[Coito ergo sum]

Be tolerant of this: A Saudi couple tortured their Sri Lankan maid after she complained of a too heavy workload by hammering 24 nails into her hands, legs and forehead, officials said on Thursday. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67P17420100826

It's just another culture....not all Muslims bang nails into their Sri Lankan maids.... the vast majority of Muslims are good, kind and caring individuals, who only want to live their lives in peace....Islam is a religion of peace and goodness....it's one of the Great Religions, after all....

[Coito ergo sum]

Same as the christians did and continue to do. Churches built on top of pagan temples, on other persons sacred land etc. There are small towns around here with more churches than any other large buildings, one every two blocks or so. No more churches, no more mosques.

SAndi,

Don't you think the christians have enough influence already all over the place without adding islam to the mix? Are we not hoping to get christianity OUT of schools, and the governement/courts etc...? and now you want to let freedom ring with Islam as well?

Compared to the "Muslim world" religion is, in fact, out of the schools and governments/courts, etc. The kind of thing we're fighting about here in the States is "can they say a prayer at legislative and city council meetings?" Can they use the words "under god" in oaths? Can they put up this cross or that religious symbol, etc. In parts of the Muslim world, they still need to overcome taxes on non-Muslim religions, Christians being run out of Lebanon, Jews not being able to build Temples anywhere in Saudi Arabia, non-Muslims being completely barred from even setting foot in certain places in the "Muslim World," women being publicly beaten for showing an ankle, women being forced to wear certain garments, women being deprived educations, women having their vaginas mutilated, gays being hanged and otherwise executed......and the list goes on and on....

Whats your point? Do you want a list of all the bad things christians have done and continue to do? A good start would be Michel Onfray's book "In Defense of Atheism" because I can't be bothered to type all that shit out...perhaps the best recent book on the subject of atheism and the scourge of christianity and islam.

List the ones they continue to do.

I hate Christianity too. But, in today's world, Islam is a far worse sess pit of disgusting ideas, and Christianity did undergo an Englightenment and Reformation, by and large. 80% of terrorist incidents over the last 25 years have been by Muslims, because of Islam, not by Christians because of Christianity. Muslims are the ones who want to commit genocide in Israel, not Christians (by and large). Muslims are the ones who couldn't stand to have a Christian country called Lebanon in the area, so they pushed the Christians out. Muslims are the ones who demand their countries be "Muslim nations" and that Islam dominate and reign supreme.

That's my point. Here in the US, we are outraged when a city council says a prayer before their meetings. That, thankfully, is all we're fighting about here. Freedom loving people in disgusting "Muslim countries" have to put up with far, far worse. And, that's the shit that Imam Rauf is selling to us here in the US, him and his skanky slut partner Daisy Khan - both of them are lying pieces of racist shit who deserve only the amount of respect we'd give to a Nazi.

[kiki5711]

Can you tell me for sure that this is not what Islam is going to demand here once it gets a good foot hold?
_______________________________________________________________

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – A conservative Saudi cleric was told to stop giving unauthorized edicts after he called for a boycott of a supermarket chain that employs women as cashiers, the office of the kingdom's most senior religious leader said Thursday.

The move is the first public reprimand of a prominent cleric following a royal decree that limits the issuance of fatwas to the country's most senior group of clerics. Fatwas are religious edicts that provide guidance in matters of everyday life to pious Muslims.

Sheik Youssef al-Ahmed had urged people not to shop at Panda Supermarket because women there work in jobs that allow for the mingling of the sexes, which the cleric said was a violation of Islamic law.

Saudi media reported that al-Ahmed's fatwa forced the supermarket management to reassign 11 of its women employees to other positions on Wednesday. The chain could not be reached for comment.

Grand Mufti Sheik Abdul-Aziz Al Sheik's office said Thursday he had summoned al-Ahmed and ordered the cleric to refrain from issuing unauthorized fatwas.

The office said it "received a pledge from al-Ahmed not to issue any fatwas" without approval.

Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islam and religious leaders have strong influence over policy making and social mores. Sexes are segregated in schools and public places. Women are not allowed to drive or vote, and physical education classes are banned in state-run girls' schools.

Saudi King Abdullah has been trying to clamp down on ultraconservative ideology, including allowing women to take up commercial jobs.

Earlier in August, Abdullah decreed that only the powerful government-sanctioned Council of Senior Islamic Scholars could issue fatwas. And last year, the king dismissed a hard-line cleric who criticized a newly inaugurated university for allowing men and women to take classes together.

But reining in the fatwas — or any learned scholar from providing them — may prove difficult as they are a way of life for observant Muslims who freely seek guidance from their local clerics.

In a call-in TV show on satellite channel al-Usra, which is Arabic for The Family, al-Ahmed defended his edict.

The fatwa has fueled campaigns on the Internet and through social networking groups. A group on Facebook had nearly 1,500 members supporting al-Ahmed.

Al-Ahmad said having women work as cashiers was a step "toward adopting a Westernized project."

"This is a project of the hypocrites that must be stopped, it's a violation of the country's laws," he said in the show.

In another example of the clash between fatwas and state policy, a senior cleric recently said women should not participate in international or local equestrian competitions because it violates rules of modesty and causes them to "mingle with men."

The edict went against the kingdom's decision to send young female competitor Dalma Malhas to the Youth Olympics in Singapore.

Malhas, 18, won a bronze metal on Tuesday in the first ever Saudi female participation in international sports events, according to the English language Arab News daily.

But Sheik Saud al-Funiasan claimed in comments on a Saudi website that women in equestrian events are "defiant public violators" of Islamic law.

"Authorities must prevent that. Only an impertinent ... would accept or praise such an act," said al-Funiasan, according to the Ijaz website.