NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

[JimC]

And you have evidence they do this?

You might be right, and they may, at the moment, not do the sort of things CES is suggesting with the information gathered.

But the potential, and the temptation is there...

Given that their may be huge benefits to a nation's security against terrorism from such information, the challenge is to have a very robust oversight process that strictly limits the use to which such information is put...

Always tricky, throwing out the bathwater without the baby...

[Warren Dew]

But they do have a warrant. Your name and mine are on it.

No, they don't have a warrant. FISA requests do not require warrants.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Only, the program only analyzes for terrorism and security items. That is what they would share. It's not going to share you secret cookie recipe or porn.

Sure ... "terrorism" or "security" issues like whether you're a member of an opposition political group, which seems also to be guiding IRS decisions.

When you have a sudden spate of similar sounding names for groups all claiming tax exempt status at almost the same time you would not want to check to see if they're legit, would you?

[Seth]

The problem for me is not so much that they are hoovering up the data for analysis and anti-terrorism as it is what they are allowed to do with it once they have it.

I don't know if this is the case, but I would like to see specific legislation from Congress stating that ANY information gathered by the government for national security purposes can ONLY be used for specified national security purposes such as tracking and apprehending terrorists...and NOTHING ELSE.

I don't care if they intercept Pablo Escobar's drug cartel planning to import two tons of cocaine, the use of any information so gathered should be legislatively declared "fruit of the poisonous tree" and not to be used in any court whatsoever for anything OTHER THAN a terrorist threat affecting national security. Moreover, before any such information could be used against any American citizen suspected of terrorism, the government would have to go to an OPEN court and present a case that the information is INDESPENSIBLE to the capture and prosecution of a terror suspect before it would be allowed to be used to justify search or arrest warrants.

I'm concerned about how little control there is over the data, which is simply too voluminous for anyone to examine real-time, but which certainly could be misused by law enforcement for domestic law enforcement purposes.

If there were a public law, widely discussed and duly enacted, that limited such information as I've suggested, I'd be LESS worried about it than I am now.

But we have to face the fact that the legal punctilios were followed in the Patriot Act, and such data gathering requires a FISA court order every 3 months to be continued, so there is due process in the system. After all, we're only protected from UNREASONABLE search and seizure, not ALL search and seizure by the Constitution, and the definition of what's "unreasonable" mutates with time, circumstance and court policy.

Frankly, the government would be derelict if it was NOT using all the tools it has at its disposal to track and catch terrorists, and if we had the kind of daily bombings they have in Iraq we'd be up in arms demanding that the government do more.

So my solution is to strictly limit how any data collected can be used against AMERICAN CITIZENS in the legal process. If I don't have to be afraid that the local cops will kick my door in because the NSA happened to intercept information about me smuggling weed in from Mexico, or some other equally local, criminal and non-warfare related reason, I'll be much more accepting of the need to hoover information for analysis.

[pErvinalia]

But they do have a warrant. Your name and mine are on it.

Now you're just being silly (actually, sillier than you've already been). That's not a warrant.

[Collector1337]

This is a serious breach of the 4th Amendment. Many people should be facing lengthy federal prison sentences for this.

Apparently, George Orwell was right.

That fact there isn't more outrage and people are just going about their lives as if nothing is happening, is appalling and goes to show how the vast majority of people are clueless sheeple.

I have no hope for humanity.

[Seth]

This is a serious breach of the 4th Amendment.

Although I feel as you do, it remains to be seen if it's a constitutional violation. As I said, the 4th Amendment protects us from "unreasonable" search and seizure, not ALL search and seizure. I'm guessing that the Patriot Act, which was duly enacted by the Congress and which has NOT been overturned by the Supreme Court, provides substantive due process to keep the "searches" reasonable in the eyes of the law. The most obvious example of this is the FISA court.

Many people should be facing lengthy federal prison sentences for this.

I'd rather focus on putting the people responsible for the IRS scandal away...that's way more dangerous than this is.

Apparently, George Orwell was right.

Well, yes. Our choice as a nation is to vote to eliminate the Patriot Act and the surveillance and accept a higher level of terrorism within our nation. I'm actually okay with that as long as people are armed, as they are in Israel, so that they can protect themselves and society.

But the dependent class has essentially taken over and is willing to sacrifice all liberty for a little illusionary safety, so we're getting what we deserve.

That fact there isn't more outrage and people are just going about their lives as if nothing is happening, is appalling and goes to show how the vast majority of people are clueless sheeple.

Yup.

I have no hope for humanity.

I have plenty of hope for humanity...just little hope or sympathy for the sheeple, who will be consumed...leaving the planet to the likes of you and I...people who are willing to fight for what we believe in and not give over our liberty to someone else.

[Sean Hayden]

[quote="Seth"][/quote]

I think that's reasonable. Getting authorities to agree to not bend the rules must be difficult though. Everyone and their dog is going to want to look at that data and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point promising to give access to it becomes a bargaining tool.

[Jason]

I don't know if this is the case, but I would like to see specific legislation from Congress stating that ANY information gathered by the government for national security purposes can ONLY be used for specified national security purposes such as tracking and apprehending terrorists...and NOTHING ELSE.

...and NOTHING ELSE.




You, of all people, are this naive?

[Jason]

So my solution is to strictly limit how any data collected can be used against AMERICAN CITIZENS in the legal process. If I don't have to be afraid that the local cops will kick my door in because the NSA happened to intercept information about me smuggling weed in from Mexico, or some other equally local, criminal and non-warfare related reason, I'll be much more accepting of the need to hoover information for analysis.

Information laundering.

They got the information through illegal means, channeled it through an intermediary to conceal the original source, an your door is breached you wake up to tinnitus and 10 DEA agents pointing HK MP5s at your chest. Freedom!

[Collector1337]

Although I feel as you do, it remains to be seen if it's a constitutional violation. As I said, the 4th Amendment protects us from "unreasonable" search and seizure, not ALL search and seizure. I'm guessing that the Patriot Act, which was duly enacted by the Congress and which has NOT been overturned by the Supreme Court, provides substantive due process to keep the "searches" reasonable in the eyes of the law. The most obvious example of this is the FISA court.

Well, what the fuck. If this isn't obviously "unreasonable" then we're fucked. "Patriot" Act should be repealed, immediately.


Sen. Wyden: "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"

Director Clapper: "No sir."

Sen. Wyden:"It does not?"

Director Clapper: "Not wittingly."

NOT "WITTINGLY?" Are you fucking shitting me?! The "PRISM" program is the definition of "wittingly."

I'd rather focus on putting the people responsible for the IRS scandal away...that's way more dangerous than this is.

I don't give one more weight than the other. I'm sure another federal prison will be opening up soon. There will be plenty of room, so there's no need to prioritize.

Well, yes. Our choice as a nation is to vote to eliminate the Patriot Act and the surveillance and accept a higher level of terrorism within our nation. I'm actually okay with that as long as people are armed, as they are in Israel, so that they can protect themselves and society.

I would eliminate it in a heartbeat. Problem is, there's no one to vote for who will eliminate it, so really, there is no choice for us as you claim we have.

But the dependent class has essentially taken over and is willing to sacrifice all liberty for a little illusionary safety, so we're getting what we deserve.

I am willing to sacrifice nothing. I wish you were wrong, but you're not.

I have plenty of hope for humanity...just little hope or sympathy for the sheeple, who will be consumed...leaving the planet to the likes of you and I...people who are willing to fight for what we believe in and not give over our liberty to someone else.

I hope it works out that way. The big question is, how bad will it get before something happens and/or people wake up?

[pErvinalia]

What I'm wondering more and more these days is what happens when both the anarchists/libertarian-socialists (aka, left libertarians) and the right libertarians decide enough is enough? One side thinks it's the right wing that is the problem, the other thinks it's the left wing that is the problem. Are these two groups going to fight each other, or are they going to come together somehow to overthrow an increasingly authoritarian system?

[Ian]

I wonder how much those people who are seeing massive violations of the Constitution and the impending demise of democracy are aware of far, far worse instances in 20th century US history? Bulk collection of electronic data is a negligible abuse of power, if we even want to call it that, compared to Cointelpro, just to name but one example. Moreover, using information gleaned from such activity in order to prosecute (or, *gasp*, persecute) someone still requires due process if it hopes to go anywhere in court. Moreover, I have a hard time imagining that most of the people claiming imminent fascism these days were getting themselves hysterical when the Patriot Act was passed. That act (thankfully watered-down since 2005), by the way, is a key justification for things like Prism. So don't expect "lengthy prison sentences" considering the illegality of it is certainly questionable. Ethically wrong perhaps, and surely controversial, but I wouldn't bet on seeing felony charges against anyone.

The Supreme Court may eventually rule otherwise though; the ACLU just sued the NSA. Should be an interesting case if it goes that far.

Consider that street cameras can record what they see 24/7, including your face (I.e. biometrics) or your car on the street (think about speeding tickets arriving via your mailbox), and people aren't going berserk about their loss of privacy in those instances. I received a speeding ticket through the mail once, complete with a photo of my car and a readout of how fast I was going, which means that some government surveillance camera trained on a street identified a crime during its 24/7 spying and that turned into legal action against me. Yes, it annoyed me. No, I didn't think democracy was on the brink.

The reason so many people are so blasé about this is because they don't fall victim to slippery-slope reasoning faults or overreaction. If bulk data collection wasn't happening, I would've been much more surprised. I don't care much for Prism, but keeping one eye on history while having an appreciation of modern media technology and how it is used to liberate far more than oppress, I can step back and know that in the long run, we're not getting more authoritarian - quite the opposite. Go ahead and babble something about me being a sheeple. I guarantee I have a much better understanding of the intel community than anyone else on this forum. IMO, George Orwell's 1984 wasn't right about the direction of our society... Aldous Huxley's Brave New World was (unsettling in its own way, of course).

[Jason]

What a complete load.

It's more like Animal Farm than 1984.

[Svartalf]

Sales of "1984" increased 6,021% in the 24 hours after the NSA revelations.

It's an ill wind, eh?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... evelations

Ban it as hate speech.

Douple Plus Ungood