Returning jihadists.

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Jason
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Jason » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:09 pm

Rum wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:30 pm
Jason wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:16 pm
As far as I'm concerned we are at war with these terrorist organizations and people like her have committed high treason. I'd welcome her back to serve a life sentence in a special ward of the prison where she cannot indoctrinate others.
I joined a far left party in my early 20s and for a short while sincerely believed that violent revolution and the overthrow of capitalism was the only way forward for the people of the world. I was older than the girl in this story and certainly responsible for my own actions.

Was I a traitor? Maybe. But I didn’t subscribe to those views for long and I got sucked into the system just like everyone else in the end.
I don't know the extent of the actions of the far left party you joined, but you probably did not engage in terrorist attacks or support terrorist actions correct? It was probably a lot of talk.

These Foreign Fighters don't just talk about how great it would be if they could bring down the infidels though. They travel to places like Syria and either engage in fighting directly, or support those who do.

I don't feel your experience is equal to these jihadists seeking to return. They have blood on their hands, directly or not, you don't.

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Rum » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:39 pm

Well you are right of course. We were a bunch of pretend intellectual far left ‘thinkers’, part of the self selected ‘vanguard’, or thought were were...well some of us. I’m not sure how connvinced I was. It is also true that if any of us, perhaps with an exception or two, had been asked to carry out a violent revolutionary act we would have run a mile. We did go on demos though and one or two ended up in confrontation with the police.

The girl in this story of course didn’t as far as we know carry out any violent actions. She appears to have an idealised vision of a Caliphate lifestyle in mind and the desire to be a ‘true muslim’.

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Seabass » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:07 pm

Bring them back and give them due process in the courts. Revoking citizenship is crazy.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Tero » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:00 pm

Citizenship is a tricky thing. The US in particular is somewhat odd, compared to other countries. But in general it should not be forced on anyone and not taken away either. Taking it away for petty crimes 20 years earlier falls in the same category.

It becomes an economic issue in the case of illegals working in a country. Economic and political.

I never had to become a US citizen, I had a choice. The earliest I could have got it was on my dad's application. I did not get it then, it was in the middle of the stupid Vietnam war. I waited some 5 years more. My mom never got it, it was of some help in her last years. She could no pay insurance here. She went back.

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Woodbutcher » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:27 pm

If you go to become a jihadist, then as far as I'm concerned you are at war with your home country. It's not a fucking game where you can call a time-out when things aren't going your way. No sympathy from me, look it up in the dictionary. It's somewhere between shit and syphilis.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Clinton Huxley » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:55 pm

Seabass wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:07 pm
Bring them back and give them due process in the courts. Revoking citizenship is crazy.
Aye. There's no point fighting jihadis if you are incapable of demonstrating your superiority to 'em.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:09 pm

What our Home Secretary has done is pretty horrendous and, I believe, against international law.

The young woman is British. Born here, raised here, groomed and radicalised while she was a child in this country, - so keeping her out is doing nothing to solve the original problem or protect others from it. She was a victim. Like any other citizen, the British government have a responsibility towards her. Whatever she's done since (and it's not clear whether she's actually committed any crimes) should be dealt with by due process.

It also seems a dangerous precedent to set, making people stateless because they're seen as problematic. If every country did that we'd just be filling refugee camps with people we don't like. I can't see how that's likely to lead to positive outcomes; most likely it fuels more terrorism.

I also don't see that there's much efficacy in the "punishment/deterrent to others" argument. People who have been radicalised to such extreme actions as travelling around the world to a war zone to join a religious utopia, are not going to be concerned at that point that they might lose their British citizenship. It might even be seen as validation of their beliefs.

But what I think is most horrendous is that this was done for political reasons. Other people have travelled to Syria, regretted it, and returned. But because this particular person had been prominently discussed in the media, Sajid Javid decides to make an example, to show that he's tough. There are so many better ways this could have been handled. She should have been allowed back, and if it could be shown she had committed any crimes, tried for them in court. She could have been committed to therapy and de-radicalisation. Her baby could have been taken care of by the family, or fostered, but either way given medical treatment rather than being left to die in a refugee camp. But all of this should be under the remit of the judicial system, not at the whim of a politician wanting to be seen as a candidate for Prime Minister.

The fact that so many people in this country seem comfortable sneering at the death of an innocent baby in order to keep othering the radicalised religious mother is far more frighting to me than the actual threat of religious terrorists. This is how fascism starts.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Jason » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:12 pm

She didn't commit a crime? Aiding terrorists isn't a crime? I think if young Muslims realize that there are consequences for extremism they'll think twice about supporting it.

I agree that Foreign Fighters like her should be returned home to face the music though. If people see examples of these jihadists returning home to face due process and (probably) life imprisonment they may be more inclined to not do those kinds of things. How could it not be a deterrent?
Last edited by Jason on Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Clinton Huxley » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:15 pm

Psycho is correct.

Besides, it has been obvious that Sajid Javid is an incurable twat since he was photographed doing that ludicrous "power stance". Google it, if you fancy a laugh. He's a moron.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:36 pm

Isn't it against the UNHCR or something to render someone stateless? We're only doing it in Australia for those with dual or other citizenship.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Hermit » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:20 pm

Jason wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:12 pm
I think if young Muslims realize that there are consequences for extremism they'll think twice about supporting it.
You think wrong. Anyone who is convinced that dying for Allah is a glorious fate will not be deterred from the possibility of any other consequences of their particular beliefs. The possibility of losing their citizenship or serving a very long time, even the rest of their life, in prison is of no deterrence to any radical who intends to join IS whatsoever.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:28 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:36 pm
Isn't it against the UNHCR or something to render someone stateless? We're only doing it in Australia for those with dual or other citizenship.
The claim is that she had a dual British/Bangladeshi citizenship. Since there was no public hearing, the Home Office didn't need to present any evidence to support that claim. Meanwhile, both she and her lawyer claim that she did not have dual citizenship. I expect there will be an appeal lodged if it hasn't been already.

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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Hermit » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:36 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:36 pm
Isn't it against the UNHCR or something to render someone stateless? We're only doing it in Australia for those with dual or other citizenship.
The UK government argues that it is permitted to strip someone of UK citizenship if an individual is eligible for citizenship elsewhere, and apparently this is true. It also argues that Shamima Begum is eligible to obtain Bangladeshi citizenship on the grounds that her mother was born there. That is utter bullshit. Shamima Begum was born in the UK, has never set foot on Bangladeshi soil, and the Bangladeshi government has announced that it will not grant citizenship to her. And why should it grant citizenship to a UK born UK citizen?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47312207
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:00 am

My problem with jihadists is whether they should be judged and serve senstence, including death sentences in Iraq and Syria, or whether they should be repatriated to be judged and serve sentence in their country of origin... in a way , they committed no crimes in Europe, so we have no business judging and imprisoning them.
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Re: Returning jihadists.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:03 am

Seabass wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:07 pm
Bring them back and give them due process in the courts. Revoking citizenship is crazy.
Technically, revoking the nationality of people who willfully abandoned it does not bother me that much, they had it, they decided they did not want it anymore, and even acted against their home countries, what business do we have treating them as citizens anymore?
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