Anti-semitism and Labour

[JimC]

well, what's the diffeerence between a good and a bad Jew? the good one is not Zionist.

What has happened in the levant since 1948 is a disgrace and that anybody could support that terrorist enterprise of a 'state' is beyond me... shows that decent people are fewer than one would like and that the Jews themselves have not learned the lesson they keep rubbing our noses in.

(and yes, I'm delibnerately staying ambiguous about Jews and Israelis, because so many non israeli Jews are zionists and support the crimes of Israel)

OK, Zionist should then be the pejorative in this debate, not Jew...

[pErvinalia]

Anti-Semitism is, like all bigotry and racism, a perspective about Jews as a type. I don't think Corbyn has done this, nor has any mainstream politician of any stripe for decades. Anybody saying, for example, that 'The Jews' control the money supply or manipulate world finance, that the Rothschild's secretly run the world, that Jews brainwash their children to be perpetual victims, or any of the other once-commonly held preconceptions about Jewish people are now the preserve of xenophobic nationalist and far-right leather fetishists.

What Corbyn has done is invite members of Hamas to London and call them 'friends', attended rallies in support of a Palestinian state, and supported a painter who was criticised for caricaturing a Jewish banker, and opposed the 2011 extradition of the Palestinian activist Raed Salah to Israel, who he invited for tea at the House of Commons. On the face of it Corbyn's anti-Semitism seems to be rooted in his political support for those in Palestine who want an independent nation, thus placing him in direct opposition to long-standing Israeli policy in the region.

You can read the full text of the Open Letter to Jeremy Corbyn from the Board of Deputies of British Jews and the Jewish Leadership Council here, but a couple of passages caught my eye...

"We conclude that he [Corbyn] cannot seriously contemplate anti-Semitism, because he is so ideologically fixed within a far left worldview that is instinctively hostile to mainstream Jewish communities."

"Again and again, Jeremy Corbyn has sided with anti-Semites rather than Jews. At best, this derives from the far left's obsessive hatred of Zionism, Zionists and Israel. At worst, it suggests a conspiratorial worldview in which mainstream Jewish communities are believed to be a hostile entity, a class enemy. "

From facebook:

Statement from Jews in the Labour Party
We are Jews in the Labour Party currently actively campaigning for Labour in local elections. We are appalled by the actions and statements of the Board of Deputies. They do not represent us or the many Jews in the Party who share Jeremy Corbyn’s vision for social justice and fairness. Jeremy’s consistent commitment to anti-racism is all the more needed now.
As the British people call time on May and the Tories, they are getting more desperate. We would hope that any organisation claiming to represent Jews would be calling them to account when, to cite two examples in the last two months, the Prime Minister‘s ex Chief of Staff uses a national newspaper to dredge up an antisemitic conspiracy theory, and Havering Conservative party issues a dogwhistle leaflet hoping to mobilise racism in their local election campaign. The Board of Deputies has been silent on both. It also says nothing on the global rise of the far right and the toxic anti-immigrant rhetoric of the tabloid press, despite the imperative from Jewish history to speak out against racism and fascism.
The Board of Deputies and those supporting them must be aware that this is an attempt to influence local elections and has nothing to do with the real and necessary task of challenging racism and anti-semitism at all levels of political life. We call on them to stop playing politics and start representing what our community needs. We believe that is best represented by the politics we fight for and hope to see win on May 3rd.

[pErvinalia]

Fuck'em If you choose your religion as your identifier then I hate you Proddies Catlicks Muslames or Kykes bring them all on .
It's so fucking fashionable now to claim that insulting religion is racism. It is not.
Atheism has failed completely it's like a vegetarian lion utterly pointless.Instead of pointing out how all religions are false and highlighting
the appalling evils perpetrated on each other in it's name we shy away from saying the brutal TRUTH for fear of accusations of Racism
It's got so fucking bad you can't even claim Flat-earthers or Republicans are ignorant morons
How long before conservatives can claim it is their "culture " and I'm not allowed to call them all out as the bastards they are ?

The problem is that Islam and Judaism in particular - more so perhaps than any other religions - bundle up a sort of pseudo ethnicity with the belief system and come up with an identity. I suspect that is where the far left Antisemitism originates. They go from the specific - in terms of their grievances against the state of Israel- to the general in terms of the people of Israel - the 'Jews'.

What people of the far left do that? I've never heard anyone on the far left equate the state of Israel with Jews.

[pErvinalia]

well, what's the diffeerence between a good and a bad Jew? the good one is not Zionist.

What has happened in the levant since 1948 is a disgrace and that anybody could support that terrorist enterprise of a 'state' is beyond me... shows that decent people are fewer than one would like and that the Jews themselves have not learned the lesson they keep rubbing our noses in.

(and yes, I'm delibnerately staying ambiguous about Jews and Israelis, because so many non israeli Jews are zionists and support the crimes of Israel)

But there's plenty of Jews that don't support the oppression of Palestinians. Supporting the state of Israel (putting aside their terrorism of Palestinians) doesn't make someone a bad person. The state of Israel is here to stay. It's not going to be unwound.

[Svartalf]

Yes there is particular muddy puddle of right-wing American Christians who support Israel's attempts at ethnic cleansing
Because they want to bring on the end of the world.
They seem, As far as I can tell, to co-exist with their friends and family who are jew hating right-wing American Christians
presumably because they think only right-wing american christians will be raptured up to heaven and the rebuilding of Solomons temple bizarrely
doesn't mean any jews are going with them .

well, much as the OT is full of poo poo, the NT is even worse, it's absurdity over balderdash, and people think it is bible truth...

[Svartalf]

well, what's the diffeerence between a good and a bad Jew? the good one is not Zionist.

What has happened in the levant since 1948 is a disgrace and that anybody could support that terrorist enterprise of a 'state' is beyond me... shows that decent people are fewer than one would like and that the Jews themselves have not learned the lesson they keep rubbing our noses in.

(and yes, I'm delibnerately staying ambiguous about Jews and Israelis, because so many non israeli Jews are zionists and support the crimes of Israel)

But there's plenty of Jews that don't support the oppression of Palestinians. Supporting the state of Israel (putting aside their terrorism of Palestinians) doesn't make someone a bad person. The state of Israel is here to stay. It's not going to be unwound.

wait... Pakistan has the atomic bomb, Iran is slowly trying to snake their way into getting it too... probbly with Pakistani and/or NK help... when the crazy muslims have the Bomb, even Israel having it too won't protect them.

[pErvinalia]

Ok, Israel's not going anywhere unless someone turns it to glass.

[Rum]

Fuck'em If you choose your religion as your identifier then I hate you Proddies Catlicks Muslames or Kykes bring them all on .
It's so fucking fashionable now to claim that insulting religion is racism. It is not.
Atheism has failed completely it's like a vegetarian lion utterly pointless.Instead of pointing out how all religions are false and highlighting
the appalling evils perpetrated on each other in it's name we shy away from saying the brutal TRUTH for fear of accusations of Racism
It's got so fucking bad you can't even claim Flat-earthers or Republicans are ignorant morons
How long before conservatives can claim it is their "culture " and I'm not allowed to call them all out as the bastards they are ?

The problem is that Islam and Judaism in particular - more so perhaps than any other religions - bundle up a sort of pseudo ethnicity with the belief system and come up with an identity. I suspect that is where the far left Antisemitism originates. They go from the specific - in terms of their grievances against the state of Israel- to the general in terms of the people of Israel - the 'Jews'.

What people of the far left do that? I've never heard anyone on the far left equate the state of Israel with Jews.

Well you haven't been following the story then - no reason you should have as it is a UK based one about a party not in office.

The accusation is exactly that - that people on the far left of the UK Labour Party are so anti-Israel (the country and its policies) that in some cases they have drifted into anti-Semitic territory.

[cronus]

National Socialism doing it's thing. Corbyn isn't a national socilaist though.

[pErvinalia]

Fuck'em If you choose your religion as your identifier then I hate you Proddies Catlicks Muslames or Kykes bring them all on .
It's so fucking fashionable now to claim that insulting religion is racism. It is not.
Atheism has failed completely it's like a vegetarian lion utterly pointless.Instead of pointing out how all religions are false and highlighting
the appalling evils perpetrated on each other in it's name we shy away from saying the brutal TRUTH for fear of accusations of Racism
It's got so fucking bad you can't even claim Flat-earthers or Republicans are ignorant morons
How long before conservatives can claim it is their "culture " and I'm not allowed to call them all out as the bastards they are ?

The problem is that Islam and Judaism in particular - more so perhaps than any other religions - bundle up a sort of pseudo ethnicity with the belief system and come up with an identity. I suspect that is where the far left Antisemitism originates. They go from the specific - in terms of their grievances against the state of Israel- to the general in terms of the people of Israel - the 'Jews'.

What people of the far left do that? I've never heard anyone on the far left equate the state of Israel with Jews.

Well you haven't been following the story then - no reason you should have as it is a UK based one about a party not in office.

The accusation is exactly that - that people on the far left of the UK Labour Party are so anti-Israel (the country and its policies) that in some cases they have drifted into anti-Semitic territory.

Do you have any examples of this? The link in the OP didn't.

[Rum]

There's a reasonable analysis and time line here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43539774

[pErvinalia]

There's two instances in that full timeline - Shah, and a Labour student councillor. Are either of those people far-left?

[cronus]

It isn't helpful to think in terms of simple political distinctions. I've no doubt Corbyn is a honorable and principled man. Surrounded by devious devils in suits. On both sides of the House and in-between if there was any in-between. And monopoly was invented by Quakers, yet no one is having a pop at them.

[Rum]

There's two instances in that full timeline - Shah, and a Labour student councillor. Are either of those people far-left?

The Left has something of a history with this issue. Here's a short article from the (left leaning) New Statesman as you are obviously are challenging my point. There are several related articles there too.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... ti-semites

[pErvinalia]

There's no actual examples in that article. I've got no doubt there are anti-semites from the left (across the spectrum), but we were specifically talking about people who equate Jews with the state of Israel. I've never once seen anyone on the far left do that.