US toddler kills himself with mother's gun

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

mistermack wrote:

Whenever you have an argument with a stranger, or witness a row in your vicinity, you have to wonder if one of the loonies will start shooting.

So do you. You just refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Living outside of the US, he doesn't have to wonder. Neither do I. The reason is simply that guns are as rare as hen's teeth here, in comparison to the US.

[Hermit]

if you live on a dungheap, you don't notice the stink.

It is normal for us.

[Seth]

Seth wrote:

mistermack wrote:

Whenever you have an argument with a stranger, or witness a row in your vicinity, you have to wonder if one of the loonies will start shooting.

So do you. You just refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Living outside of the US, he doesn't have to wonder. Neither do I. The reason is simply that guns are as rare as hen's teeth here, in comparison to the US.

And yet people get murdered and injured all the time there, and they get shot. "In comparison" is merely weaseling around the truth. Nobody has to worry about a "loonie" shooting up the place...until some loonie does so...or hacks your head off with a meat cleaver.

The problem is that you think a defensive handgun is only useful for defending against a firearms attack. This is not the case. The only pertinent question is which of us has the capability of responding to and defending against some sort of deadly personal attack. I do. You don't. You're fucked, I'm not.

[Seth]

if you live on a dungheap, you don't notice the stink.

It is normal for us.

Quote mine...

[Hermit]

if you live on a dungheap, you don't notice the stink.

It is normal for us.

Quote mine...

On the contrary. I enhanced the reality and justifiability of what you said, you despicable ingrate.

[Seth]

if you live on a dungheap, you don't notice the stink.

It is normal for us.

Quote mine...

On the contrary. I enhanced the reality and justifiability of what you said, you despicable ingrate.

Ofuscatory pettifoggery.

[Hermit]

if you live on a dungheap, you don't notice the stink.

It is normal for us.

Quote mine...

On the contrary. I enhanced the reality and justifiability of what you said, you despicable ingrate.

Ofuscatory pettifoggery.

Enlightenment, actually. Pettifoggery is your department. And now for a bonus snippet of enlightenment: It's obfuscatory. Pity you can't even spell another field you specialise in.

[Forty Two]

Well, the right to keep and bear arms doesn't mean that there can't be rules about its safe use and handling. Guns are deadly. Anyone owning one should know how to use it, care for it and store it.

No disagreement there at all. Fact is though that the vast majority of gun owners do exactly that. A few (actually very few) tragic situations in no way justify infringing on the rights of everyone.

No, but since we can agree that there can be rules about safe handling, use, care and storage, then the incidents that do occur may well suggest means of improving regulations.

I don't know the answer, but I do know that we have a problem to deal with. Yes, toddler deaths and mass shootings like in Charleston are statistically small, but they remain a problem. If we can find a solution, it would be better than not finding one.

[Forty Two]

Living outside of the US, he doesn't have to wonder. Neither do I. The reason is simply that guns are as rare as hen's teeth here, in comparison to the US.

The thing about the US is that there are so many guns, yet, they are used so infrequently by the average gun owner. Mostly, they are used for hunting, target shooting, and home defense, but almost never for crimes (by the average citizen). If one checks the crime stats, the guns that are doing all the killings (other than suicides) are drug-crime-related. The average American-on-the-street is as free of gun violence as anywhere else in the Western world. That's why even places like mid-town Manhattan with millions of people milling about every day are in general quite peaceful.

I think folks in Europe have a romanticized or exaggerated view of what goes on in the reality of day-to-day life here.

[Hermit]

The average American-on-the-street is as free of gun violence as anywhere else in the Western world.

Actually, no. On a per population basis fewer holdups of shops with the use of firearms occur in Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand and so on than in the USA, and no, the difference is not made up by would-be robbers using cricket bats, frying pans, knives or other weapons.

Add to that the number of road rages that involve the brandishing or actual use of guns, customer disaffection with shopkeepers and domestic disputes that end up the same, I think you'll need to be extraordinarily selective with your choice of data points to defend your extremely curious assertion.

[Forty Two]

If you look at where the gun violence occurs, and in what context, you'll see why. Most of the gun homicides in the US are drug-trafficking related, and secondarily gang violence related. The average American going through their daily life doesn't see or encounter guns.

[laklak]

S'true. I've never seen a shootout or seen anybody waving a gun around in public. I've seen a lot of hunters with rifles, though, and cops all carry sidearms.

[mistermack]

If you look at where the gun violence occurs, and in what context, you'll see why. Most of the gun homicides in the US are drug-trafficking related, and secondarily gang violence related. The average American going through their daily life doesn't see or encounter guns.

In which case, the average American clearly doesn't need one.

[Seth]

Well, the right to keep and bear arms doesn't mean that there can't be rules about its safe use and handling. Guns are deadly. Anyone owning one should know how to use it, care for it and store it.

No disagreement there at all. Fact is though that the vast majority of gun owners do exactly that. A few (actually very few) tragic situations in no way justify infringing on the rights of everyone.

No, but since we can agree that there can be rules about safe handling, use, care and storage, then the incidents that do occur may well suggest means of improving regulations.

There are rules and regulations about safe handling already. You are ultimately responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel of your gun, and doing something irresponsible most often gets you charged with a criminal offense. It's quite likely that the mother will be, or at least certainly can be charged with child abuse resulting in death, among other crimes that would apply. It is possible however that a prosecutor may consider that a dead child is punishment enough in this circumstance, which is somewhat different from a crack whore leaving a gun on the coffee table where her child can play with it. You see, each situation is different and therefore no one regulation can be applied to everyone. For example, if a "safe storage" regulation is in place, as in the UK, where the firearm has to be rendered inoperable and locked in a safe with the ammunition locked up separately in the name of "child safety," then not only might a "child" in a home be placed at greater risk because the parent (or indeed the child) cannot access the gun quickly enough in an emergency to save someone's life. And yes, there are instances of children using their parents guns to save their own lives or the lives of their siblings.

As well, such a blanket rule does not address people like me who have no children in the home and who therefore do not need to store a weapon in a safe in disabled condition at all times.

The solution is quite simple: make it a crime to do stupid stuff with guns and prosecute people who do stupid stuff with guns. That pretty much covers the bases because adding reams of other regulations will not prevent stupid people from doing stupid stuff. If burdening people with regulations prevented either crime or accidents, the world would today be crime and accident free. It's not. That should be a clue as to the effectiveness of unnecessary rules and regulations.

I don't know the answer, but I do know that we have a problem to deal with. Yes, toddler deaths and mass shootings like in Charleston are statistically small, but they remain a problem. If we can find a solution, it would be better than not finding one.

I don't disagree, but the answers are really quite simple: Make gun safety and marksmanship training mandatory in school, beginning in the first grade and continuing through high school; prosecute people who do stupid or illegal stuff with guns that get other people hurt rigidly and harshly; and allow any law-abiding citizen who wishes to do so to carry personal defensive firearms as they deem fit.

[Seth]

Living outside of the US, he doesn't have to wonder. Neither do I. The reason is simply that guns are as rare as hen's teeth here, in comparison to the US.

The thing about the US is that there are so many guns, yet, they are used so infrequently by the average gun owner. Mostly, they are used for hunting, target shooting, and home defense, but almost never for crimes (by the average citizen). If one checks the crime stats, the guns that are doing all the killings (other than suicides) are drug-crime-related. The average American-on-the-street is as free of gun violence as anywhere else in the Western world. That's why even places like mid-town Manhattan with millions of people milling about every day are in general quite peaceful.

I think folks in Europe have a romanticized or exaggerated view of what goes on in the reality of day-to-day life here.

Indeed they do.