Time to suspend suspended sentences

[JimC]

I suspect for many people the best option is to just do their time and go home.

Like marriage...

[Rum]

Have you any evidence for this? Especially considering that the USA incarcerates a greater proportion of its citizens than any other 'Western' country? I am sure cost is part of the equation but it is not the primary reason for such an approach - at least in the rather more civilized countries of the developed world.

The main reason for suspended sentences is fiscal. They do it because it's fucking expensive to put someone in jail, even for a short time, and the jails are always overcrowded anyway. So, suspended sentences are a desperate attempt to scare first-timers into not offending again by putting them through the meat-grinder of the criminal justice system (which costs a lot in and of itself) and then letting them off with a stern warning and a sword of Damocles hanging over their head for a time. Depending on the seriousness of the crime, it often works. They also do what's called "deferred prosecution," particularly for juveniles, which means that if the defendant doesn't re-offend, the original charge (of which he has not yet been convicted) is expunged from his record so that it will not affect things like getting into college or getting a job.

[mistermack]

Part of the reason for a suspended sentence is fiscal to be sure. But another part, as someone else pointed out, is that prison or youth detention is a school-room for crime.
Mixing with habitual criminals turns first-timers into better and more skillful offenders.
So I agree, you can't suddenly do away with the suspended sentence option.

Change the system first, so that there is no association at all between criminals except those in for very long sentences.

If they crave human contact, you can let volunteers in to visit them. Or let them chat to volunteers online. Otherwise, fuck em, if no volunteer comes forwards.

If they don't like it, good. It's a better deterrent.

It would be cheaper and safer for the prison staff too, if they were not dealing with groups of offenders together. And much easier to keep drugs away from the inmates.
Loads of people start on drugs in prison, and stay hooked when they come out. That's why they re-offend so much.
Like BG says, I have no objection to supplying video entertainment, or PCs or making life cushy.
Who cares? You're locked up on your own, and that's enough.

Under those conditions, you could then eventually do away with the suspended element, without producing trained criminals when they come out.

[pErvinalia]

Most crime is committed by young people after all (they tend to peak at 17) and most 'grow out of it'.

In volume terms, certainly. In monetary terms, however, most is committed by middle-aged businessmen. Trouble is, the impact of an OAP pensioner being mugged for her handbag is immediate and visceral, while the impact of VAT fraud and tax evasion is far harder to evaluate.

Why do you hate freedom?!?

[mistermack]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

[Seth]

I suspect for many people the best option is to just do their time and go home.

Many convicts feel that way too. If you get out early, you can be subjected to long-term probation/parole, whereas if you serve your full time, once they release you they can't screw with you anymore.

[Rum]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

This surprises me. I think I can say in all honesty that the fear of being caught has never stopped me committing a crime - and except for some very minor stuff as a student, I never have. The desire to 'do the right thing' is what makes me someone who stays within the law. I'm not sure what that says except I am well socialised!

[Sean Hayden]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

This surprises me. I think I can say in all honesty that the fear of being caught has never stopped me committing a crime - and except for some very minor stuff as a student, I never have. The desire to 'do the right thing' is what makes me someone who stays within the law. I'm not sure what that says except I am well socialised!

I agree Rum, reasonable people don't commit crimes because they care about the people hurt by it. Youngsters are often unreasonable and this can be worse for some than others obviously.

However, I have to ask just to make another point: is LSD legal where you're at Rum? Here LSD is not something you want to get caught with. I think the majority of our prisoners are drug offenders/addicts.

[Rum]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

This surprises me. I think I can say in all honesty that the fear of being caught has never stopped me committing a crime - and except for some very minor stuff as a student, I never have. The desire to 'do the right thing' is what makes me someone who stays within the law. I'm not sure what that says except I am well socialised!

I agree Rum, reasonable people don't commit crimes because they care about the people hurt by it. Youngsters are often unreasonable and this can be worse for some than others obviously.

However, I have to ask just to make another point: is LSD legal where you're at Rum? Here LSD is not something you want to get caught with. I think the majority of our prisoners are drug offenders/addicts.

It was drugs I was referring to as the 'minor' offences I committed as a young man. LSD, cannabis where the main ones. I took some other stuff too - mainly legal prescription drugs. From what I read the drug of choice for many prisoners is heroin, which I never (thanks the gods) tried.

[Sean Hayden]

I suspect for many people the best option is to just do their time and go home.

Many convicts feel that way too. If you get out early, you can be subjected to long-term probation/parole, whereas if you serve your full time, once they release you they can't screw with you anymore.

Yep, and that's what makes Jim's analogy somewhat applicable i.e. entering into a life long abusive relationship that can't be annulled. Many people accepting suspended sentences may eventually end up doing more time than guys with more offenses on their record, just none happening while they were serving a suspended sentence. That's the reasoning anyway. We'd need to see some numbers to know for sure.

[Sean Hayden]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

This surprises me. I think I can say in all honesty that the fear of being caught has never stopped me committing a crime - and except for some very minor stuff as a student, I never have. The desire to 'do the right thing' is what makes me someone who stays within the law. I'm not sure what that says except I am well socialised!

I agree Rum, reasonable people don't commit crimes because they care about the people hurt by it. Youngsters are often unreasonable and this can be worse for some than others obviously.

However, I have to ask just to make another point: is LSD legal where you're at Rum? Here LSD is not something you want to get caught with. I think the majority of our prisoners are drug offenders/addicts.

It was drugs I was referring to as the 'minor' offences I committed as a young man. LSD, cannabis where the main ones. I took some other stuff too - mainly legal prescription drugs. From what I read the drug of choice for many prisoners is heroin, which I never (thanks the gods) tried.

But they're only minor to you right? What are the thoughts of the powers that be regarding these minor crimes? Lots of people in the states can't believe they're doing time for such "minor" offenses.

[laklak]

I think a suspended sentence should mean getting strung up by the balls. That'll larn 'em.

[Blind groper]

I think that most intelligent and educated people would not accept that prison for minor drug 'crimes' is OK. If someone smokes marijuana, I would call them unwise but not criminal.

Genuine crime involves the creation of a victim. If no victim, then no crime. Sometimes, of course, that principle is averaged over many people. Driving drunk is a crime, even though only a few drunk drivers create victims. But those few are enough.

[Rum]

On the subject of deterrence, maybe the habitual low level criminals don't have the imagination to work out that things go wrong, and they will get caught eventually. So maybe prison isn't much of a deterrent for them.
But I can assure you that it's always been a deterrent for me. And most of the people I know.
So maybe it doesn't deter the undeterrable. But it certainly deters a lot of people.
Whether they would have committed crime is debatable. I have myself on occasion, but pretty minor stuff that didn't include dishonesty. And once long ago, a pretty violent crime.
I'm sure there would have been a lot more without the threat of prison lurking.
It creates an attitude of mind. Sort of puts crime into the ''last resort'' bracket. Even if it doesn't one hundred percent stop it, I'm sure it cuts it down a huge amount.

This surprises me. I think I can say in all honesty that the fear of being caught has never stopped me committing a crime - and except for some very minor stuff as a student, I never have. The desire to 'do the right thing' is what makes me someone who stays within the law. I'm not sure what that says except I am well socialised!

I agree Rum, reasonable people don't commit crimes because they care about the people hurt by it. Youngsters are often unreasonable and this can be worse for some than others obviously.

However, I have to ask just to make another point: is LSD legal where you're at Rum? Here LSD is not something you want to get caught with. I think the majority of our prisoners are drug offenders/addicts.

It was drugs I was referring to as the 'minor' offences I committed as a young man. LSD, cannabis where the main ones. I took some other stuff too - mainly legal prescription drugs. From what I read the drug of choice for many prisoners is heroin, which I never (thanks the gods) tried.

But they're only minor to you right? What are the thoughts of the powers that be regarding these minor crimes? Lots of people in the states can't believe they're doing time for such "minor" offenses.

It is a fair point, but most people would not consider any other class of crime or set of laws as stupidly inapplicable to them. It is hard to imagine a burglar suggesting that he burgles because he does not believe the law on burglary is daft and should be abolished!

[Sean Hayden]

Rum -indeed

BG - We have people serving life for marijuana crimes. Can all those Feds be wrong? They are intelligent and well educated after all.