Pollution in China

[Warren Dew]

I saw something on TV before about Chinese people taking the Chinese Government to court over some pollution issue. I think the Government had turned a blind eye and allowed an area to become heavily polluted, causing heath problems. Anyway, it surprised me greatly. It didn't match up with what I thought a totalitarian Communist state should be like.... I mean, imagine trying to sue Hitler in Germany.

Well, to be fair, that most certainly did not happen under Mao. Local party officials would just cover that stuff up, which is why it used to be worse than it is now. One of the benefits of economic liberalization was that it went hand in hand with some improvement in the impartiality of the judicial system.

[kiki5711]

Aside from feeling sorry for those people, what I'm really pissed off about is that I am forced to buy the products made in China with the blood of those people. If I find something I need made in some other country, I buy it, but that's far and few in between.

And, before you say, it, no it's not preferable for me to shop around on line for products NOT made in China. It's not convenient and especially for clothes, I need to try them on before I buy them. I don't want to deal with having to return stuff.

[JimC]

It seems they have decided to winnow out the worst bits of capitalism and communism and combine them in a great big melting pot...

There's evidence that their pollution was even worse under pure communism. They just didn't allow pictures to be taken.

Perhaps worse per unit of production, but they have ramped up production massively since then...

[Rum]

Aside from feeling sorry for those people, what I'm really pissed off about is that I am forced to buy the products made in China with the blood of those people. If I find something I need made in some other country, I buy it, but that's far and few in between.

And, before you say, it, no it's not preferable for me to shop around on line for products NOT made in China. It's not convenient and especially for clothes, I need to try them on before I buy them. I don't want to deal with having to return stuff.

Its a classic dilemma. I choose not to buy mass produced chicken and used to buy free range only. That costs almost twice as much but I know it is morally better to buy it, at least to my mind set. My income has just been reduced by almost half because of my circumstances and I can't afford FR any more.

In my case I just don't buy chicken.

You can't always do that with Chinese produce cos it is everywhere.

[kiki5711]

Aside from feeling sorry for those people, what I'm really pissed off about is that I am forced to buy the products made in China with the blood of those people. If I find something I need made in some other country, I buy it, but that's far and few in between.

And, before you say, it, no it's not preferable for me to shop around on line for products NOT made in China. It's not convenient and especially for clothes, I need to try them on before I buy them. I don't want to deal with having to return stuff.

Its a classic dilemma. I choose not to buy mass produced chicken and used to buy free range only. That costs almost twice as much but I know it is morally better to buy it, at least to my mind set. My income has just been reduced by almost half because of my circumstances and I can't afford FR any more.

In my case I just don't buy chicken.

You can't always do that with Chinese produce cos it is everywhere.

I do buy free range chicken and eggs. I try to buy from whole foods as much as possible but it's incredibly expensive. I buy frozen hamburgers either from USA or Canada. Nothing regarding food, as far as I can tell, that I buy is from China. I would love to buy from local farms, but it's too far to drive to find them.

Even expensive clothes from Macy's are made in China. It's really depressing. Italian made shoes are close to $200.00. I can buy maybe one or two pairs.

[Warren Dew]

Aside from feeling sorry for those people, what I'm really pissed off about is that I am forced to buy the products made in China with the blood of those people. If I find something I need made in some other country, I buy it, but that's far and few in between.

Buying products made in China is what gives them the money to address these issues, which they are starting to do.

Perhaps worse per unit of production, but they have ramped up production massively since then...

To the contrary, old style heavy industry, which is the worst polluting, has declined in China since Maoism. What's increased is light industry, which isn't as bad environmentally.

[JimC]

Aside from feeling sorry for those people, what I'm really pissed off about is that I am forced to buy the products made in China with the blood of those people. If I find something I need made in some other country, I buy it, but that's far and few in between.

Buying products made in China is what gives them the money to address these issues, which they are starting to do.

Perhaps worse per unit of production, but they have ramped up production massively since then...

To the contrary, old style heavy industry, which is the worst polluting, has declined in China since Maoism. What's increased is light industry, which isn't as bad environmentally.

Complete nonsense. Their production of electricity, steel and concrete has increased greatly since the Mao years, to match both increased population and a more energy-intensive western style consumption, as has the production of cars in more recent years; certainly not a light industry...

And much of the light industry involves the production of electronic components, which can be very polluting indeed (eg. the solvents used to clean chips etc.)

[Warren Dew]

And much of the light industry involves the production of electronic components, which can be very polluting indeed (eg. the solvents used to clean chips etc.)

It produces very little pollution per dollar of output or per person employed compared to the shut down Mao era factories.

And some of the Mao era factories are still an environmental concern, even years after being shut down:

http://china.globaltimes.cn/society/2010-12/599785.html

[Seth]

Hey, ever debilitated, dead Communist is a good Communist. Maybe with all the pollution and oppression people will get fed up enough with their Communist masters to put THEM all on their knees and put a bullet in their necks, then China can become a true capitalist free market society and join the civilized world.

Until then, the more chronic lung disease and cancer they get, the better, it makes them weaker as enemies, which they are right now.

[JimC]

Hey, ever debilitated, dead Communist is a good Communist. Maybe with all the pollution and oppression people will get fed up enough with their Communist masters to put THEM all on their knees and put a bullet in their necks, then China can become a true capitalist free market society and join the civilized world.

Until then, the more chronic lung disease and cancer they get, the better, it makes them weaker as enemies, which they are right now.

Their system may be shitty in many respects, and their leaders are clearly power-hungry, non-elected arseholes, but otherwise the bulk of the population are people just like us.

[Seth]

Hey, ever debilitated, dead Communist is a good Communist. Maybe with all the pollution and oppression people will get fed up enough with their Communist masters to put THEM all on their knees and put a bullet in their necks, then China can become a true capitalist free market society and join the civilized world.

Until then, the more chronic lung disease and cancer they get, the better, it makes them weaker as enemies, which they are right now.

Their system may be shitty in many respects, and their leaders are clearly power-hungry, non-elected arseholes, but otherwise the bulk of the population are people just like us.

Except that they're Communists. When they give up Communism and kill off their Communist leaders, and take up the cause of free market capitalism (by opening THEIR markets to us) then I'll worry about whether they are getting COPD from all the pollution or how many babies they abort every year.

Until then, they are a pestilence on the face of the planet and I'd be perfectly happy if a "yellow plague" killed every one of them off. Where's that engineered biowar virus when you need it?

[charlou]

or how many babies they abort every year.

These may be the fortunate ones, judging by the photos linked in the OP. What a horrible mess that country is in, and we're all partly responsible for it, regardless how little choice we think we have in the matter. When I look around my immediate vicinity, taking even a superficial view of it, at all the bits and pieces of "stuff" which will eventually become landfill, and think about the packaging it all came in which is now mostly landfill, and then think about how those people live, their sickness and poverty, and that boy's suffering body twisted and dying with bone cancer. Fuck.

[JimC]

Hey, ever debilitated, dead Communist is a good Communist. Maybe with all the pollution and oppression people will get fed up enough with their Communist masters to put THEM all on their knees and put a bullet in their necks, then China can become a true capitalist free market society and join the civilized world.

Until then, the more chronic lung disease and cancer they get, the better, it makes them weaker as enemies, which they are right now.

Their system may be shitty in many respects, and their leaders are clearly power-hungry, non-elected arseholes, but otherwise the bulk of the population are people just like us.

Except that they're Communists. When they give up Communism and kill off their Communist leaders, and take up the cause of free market capitalism (by opening THEIR markets to us) then I'll worry about whether they are getting COPD from all the pollution or how many babies they abort every year.

Until then, they are a pestilence on the face of the planet and I'd be perfectly happy if a "yellow plague" killed every one of them off. Where's that engineered biowar virus when you need it?

I'm not sure that there are any true communists left in China, certainly none that would be recognised as such by committed marxists...

But I know that you mean; those committed to supporting the current structure...

They too would be a small minority. The bulk of the people simply live their lives with inertia and resignation, hoping to get the best life for themselves that they can. One day, they may well turn on the leadership, but until then, it serves no purpose to demonise them as capital C Communists...

[Warren Dew]

It's weird how different people can come up with such different self serving fantasies about China, and none of them bear any significant resemblance to the reality.

[charlou]

It's weird how different people can come up with such different self serving fantasies about China, and none of them bear any significant resemblance to the reality.

I'm aware the reality isn't only what is depicted in those photos. The same can be said for any country ... taking the worst (or the best) and saying that's representative is manipulative ... yep, I know that. That said, the worst is so often swept under the rug ... At least bringing it to light for consideration and debate might be a positive step toward improvement.

If you think some of us are in error about our thinking, please discuss it.