Utah official state firearm

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Seth » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 pm

FBM wrote:
Feck wrote:I thought 45's made bigger holes and imparted more energy to target ?
Only when the round actually hits the target, tho. The 9mm is more accurate and the reduced recoil means you can put more shots on-target faster. The .45 has a much shorter effective range than the 9mm, too.
Nonsense. The accuracy has nothing to do with the caliber, only the quality of the firearm and the ability of the shooter. While the .45 does have greater recoil, it is also more effective as a man-stopper. The comparative absolute range of any handgun is largely irrelevant, since they are almost never effective beyond 50 yards at most, and are most commonly used at less than three yards. At any rational tactical distance, both are equally "accurate."

The low recoil of the 9mm is offset by the anemic performance of the bullet. A 115 grain 9mm round has far less lethal effect than a 250 grain .45 round. While the higher velocity of the 9mm round compensates somewhat for the lighter bullet, the heavier, though slower .45 round has better "knockdown" power, and it's less likely to overpenetrate.

I put away my 9mm in favor of a .45 long ago, in response to a photo in "Street Survival - Tactics for Armed Encounters" showing a PCP-loaded guy who was shot 29 times in the torso, arms and abdomen with 9mm rounds before becoming "incapacitated."

Recoil issues can be compensated for by training, and I can fire my H&K USP Compact .45 as quickly as anyone with a 9mm and be just as accurate at combat ranges. It just takes practice.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Seth » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:59 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
FBM wrote:
Feck wrote:I thought 45's made bigger holes and imparted more energy to target ?
Only when the round actually hits the target, tho. The 9mm is more accurate and the reduced recoil means you can put more shots on-target faster. The .45 has a much shorter effective range than the 9mm, too.
The .45 is slower, so it has to use brute force to do damage. I can shoot both your eyes out with a 9mm from 100 yards. That will do the job for most people.
With a handgun? Don't make me laugh. :funny:
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:03 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
FBM wrote:
Feck wrote:I thought 45's made bigger holes and imparted more energy to target ?
Only when the round actually hits the target, tho. The 9mm is more accurate and the reduced recoil means you can put more shots on-target faster. The .45 has a much shorter effective range than the 9mm, too.
The .45 is slower, so it has to use brute force to do damage. I can shoot both your eyes out with a 9mm from 100 yards. That will do the job for most people.
With a handgun? Don't make me laugh. :funny:
I had perfect scores in boot camp at the rifle range. They gave me a .38 and I shot a perfect score with that. The guy that taught me to shoot was the best shot in the Marine Corps the year he retired.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:08 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
FBM wrote:
Feck wrote:I thought 45's made bigger holes and imparted more energy to target ?
Only when the round actually hits the target, tho. The 9mm is more accurate and the reduced recoil means you can put more shots on-target faster. The .45 has a much shorter effective range than the 9mm, too.
The .45 is slower, so it has to use brute force to do damage. I can shoot both your eyes out with a 9mm from 100 yards. That will do the job for most people.
With a handgun? Don't make me laugh. :funny:
I had perfect scores in boot camp at the rifle range. They gave me a .38 and I shot a perfect score with that. The guy that taught me to shoot was the best shot in the Marine Corps the year he retired.
Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:10 am

Seth wrote:Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
Funny, I didn't see you there.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by FBM » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:20 am

Seth, to each his own. I know some people can do amazing things with a .45, but only after quite a bit of training. As for the accuracy issue, my .45 has fixed front and rear sights. My Taurus 9mm has adjustable rear sights. After a bit of tweaking, I increased the accuracy, not the precision, considerably. Accuracy is more in the domain of the shooter, I agree, but the weapon does enter into the equation. It's not a black-or-white issue. Anyway, it's not like I threw the .45 in the trash. I still have it, as I can see it does have its place. If I were in close quarters, I'd like the .45. In more variable circumstances, I'd feel more comfortable with the 9mm. I wouldn't argue with anybody over their preferences. Different strokes and all that.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by FBM » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:23 am

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by FBM » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:33 am

"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:36 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
Funny, I didn't see you there.
I didn't have to be there. Shooting a perfect score does not validate your claim that you could shoot both eyes out of a person with a 9mm at 100 yards except by dumb luck.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by FBM » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:38 am

I'm just guessing that 'zilla didn't mean that as literally as you're taking it, Seth.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:38 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
Funny, I didn't see you there.
I didn't have to be there. Shooting a perfect score does not validate your claim that you could shoot both eyes out of a person with a 9mm at 100 yards except by dumb luck.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Seth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:41 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
Funny, I didn't see you there.
I didn't have to be there. Shooting a perfect score does not validate your claim that you could shoot both eyes out of a person with a 9mm at 100 yards except by dumb luck.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean you can do it.

Please feel free to prove me wrong with video and independent verification of the number of shots fired, ammunition lot, bullet weight, firearm, barrel length and distance.

Until then, I call bullshit.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:45 am

You can call anything you want. I don't jump through your hoops.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by sandinista » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:44 am

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Seth wrote:Good for you. I can hit a 1" wide by 4" long stick of dynamite at 740 meters, but not with my handgun. For that I require my Sako TRG-42 .338 Lapua Magnum with Springfield Armory 6-24x scope.

You may have shot a perfect score with a .38, I've done so many times at qualification in my police career (I've never shot less than 95% except in the Academy), but not at 100 yards. And there is no fucking way you could shoot anyone's eyes out with a 9mm handgun at 100 yards, except by dumb luck.
Funny, I didn't see you there.
I didn't have to be there. Shooting a perfect score does not validate your claim that you could shoot both eyes out of a person with a 9mm at 100 yards except by dumb luck.
Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean you can do it.

Please feel free to prove me wrong with video and independent verification of the number of shots fired, ammunition lot, bullet weight, firearm, barrel length and distance.

Until then, I call bullshit.
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Re: Utah designates Browning M1911 official state firearm

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:49 am

You saw the video where the guy hits the egg at 100 yards? So what makes it so much tougher to hit the center of the egg at that distance? Unless you're a crap shot, of course.
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