Soldiers: heroes?

[Meekychuppet]

It's hard to take anyone seriously with that OP if they haven't seen combat. Sorry.

I haven't seen combat either.

Why should a civilian not have anything to say about how society views soldiers?

I didn't say they can't. I said I won't take them seriously.

Not even after...

I was a soldier and you're pretty much spot on. We basically did as we were told to the best of our abilities. I don't criticise the soldiers, but the politicians who led us into a situation.
I agree with your assessment, generally.

Have a look up thread. I posted about personal experience. Since I am not prepared to believe that Lozzer experienced war vicariously through AB I'd suggest our plea here is defunct at best. Furthermore, despite 'doing as we were told', what they were told could have killed them, so I stand by my post. All things being equal, I think someone who is risking their lives in a relatively poorly paid arm of the civil service can have my respect.

It reminds me of a story actually, I can't remember if this is from a film or not, but I read about it somewhere. US (I think) soldiers took in an enemy combatant whose guts had been blown out. After four (I think) days he asked for a drink and a soldier obliged. When his colleagues objected his response was 'anyone who can survive for four days like that can have water from my canteen'. I've no doubt made a pig's ear of that retelling, but I think it sums up how I feel. I've met a mix of military sorts, honourable men, career soldiers, idiots and dickheads (mostly dickheads I have to say). My opinion of them personally varies, but since they very kindly risk everything, and force their families to like it with the,they have take a drink from my canteen any day, so to speak. And you're right, that last bot does sound gay.

Besides, I know AB personally. He's a very modest bloke and is criminally underselling himself here.

[Feck]

Isn't the 'drink from my canteen' from Apocalypse Now ? isn't the irony that the poor guy didn't get a drink ? Or did you miss the point of that too ?

[Meekychuppet]

Isn't the 'drink from my canteen' from Apocalypse Now ? isn't the irony that the poor guy didn't get a drink ? Or did you miss the point of that too ?

Possibly. Never seen the film, but that's how I remember the telling.

Edit: I was being metaphorical, but since I haven't seen the film I could well be wrong about the meaning, but the point remains. Anyone willing to do such a dangerous job deserves at least a modicum of respect. I'm never going to have to die for astronomy, so I have the luxury of making this judgement.

[Pappa]

Apocalypse Now

Never seen the film

[Pensioner]

My eldest son wanted to join the Brit army all I said is why would you want to go and fight the rich man's wars.

[sandinista]

good post Lozzer. I agree fully. There is nothing heroic about going off to war. It's just military propaganda, governments trying desperately to get a population to support unjust, brutal terrorism. Generally, in canada at least, even though the government tries to portray dead army folk as hero's, no one really buys it except the family of the deceased. I think that's just a defense mechanism to lessen the hurt of their son or daughter being killed for nothing.

[Santa_Claus]

nice post lozzer.

the heroes thing is simply a cynical way to prop up support politically for a campaign that is simply about sucking up to the US.

[Robert_S]

good post Lozzer. I agree fully. There is nothing heroic about going off to war. It's just military propaganda, governments trying desperately to get a population to support unjust, brutal terrorism. Generally, in canada at least, even though the government tries to portray dead army folk as hero's, no one really buys it except the family of the deceased. I think that's just a defense mechanism to lessen the hurt of their son or daughter being killed for nothing.

I would be very surprised if nobody went off to war with the best of intentions and in a spirit of self sacrifice for a worthy cause. I don't think our wars are worthwhile I could be wrong on Afghanistan, but not on Iraq. It was plainly a stupid idea carried out stupidly.

But that says nothing about those kids fighting in them. Any one of them could be a hero, a murderous little shit, or someone trying to stay alive long enough to collect on that tuition they promise.

[sandinista]

good post Lozzer. I agree fully. There is nothing heroic about going off to war. It's just military propaganda, governments trying desperately to get a population to support unjust, brutal terrorism. Generally, in canada at least, even though the government tries to portray dead army folk as hero's, no one really buys it except the family of the deceased. I think that's just a defense mechanism to lessen the hurt of their son or daughter being killed for nothing.

I would be very surprised if nobody went off to war with the best of intentions and in a spirit of self sacrifice for a worthy cause. I don't think our wars are worthwhile I could be wrong on Afghanistan, but not on Iraq. It was plainly a stupid idea carried out stupidly.

But that says nothing about those kids fighting in them. Any one of them could be a hero, a murderous little shit, or someone trying to stay alive long enough to collect on that tuition they promise.

Possibly someone may have gone with the "best of intentions", but I suppose the same could be said for anyone, anywhere involved in combat. Same with self sacrifice and a worthy cause, I'm pretty sure most suicide bombers feel that way as well. Just as likely to find a "hero" walking in any downtown city as in a warzone. If the "kids" fighting thought they had good intentions, they are either ignorant, or poorly informed.

[Robert_S]

I'm not going to get into a general discussion here about the rights and wrongs of the US's and UK's current wars. I just don't like seeing people in groups being judged positively or negatively as individuals merely for belonging to a group.

[M]

Someone I know had a rant on Arsebook about nursing staff complaining about pay when "our boys" are dying in Afghanistan. I find that attitude absolutely infuriating. Both professions are presently chosen and neither have any bearing on the other. Nobody is fighting because they were conscripted ffs. Should a nurse not complain about her pay when he/she is cutting dead skin off a tramp's feet, bathing doubly incontinent pensioners, being abused by bleeding drunks, whilst earning the same money as a trainee teacher, just because someone else chose to join the army? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

[sandinista]

I'm not going to get into a general discussion here about the rights and wrongs of the US's and UK's current wars. I just don't like seeing people in groups being judged positively or negatively as individuals merely for belonging to a group.

Really? It's done all the time. Nazi's, muslim/christian fundamentalists, animal rights activists, "protesters", cops, inmates, etc. Personally, I think, what group you belong to tells a lot about you as an individual. Whether it be positive or negative.

[sandinista]

Someone I know had a rant on Arsebook about nursing staff complaining about pay when "our boys" are dying in Afghanistan. I find that attitude absolutely infuriating. Both professions are presently chosen and neither have any bearing on the other. Nobody is fighting because they were conscripted ffs. Should a nurse not complain about her pay when he/she is cutting dead skin off a tramp's feet, bathing doubly incontinent pensioners, being abused by bleeding drunks, whilst earning the same money as a trainee teacher, just because someone else chose to join the army? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT is ridiculous. Sounds like a moron falling for propaganda.

[floppit]

I don't think there's any large group of people who are all heroic or bad. I think most jobs contain a mix, both in motivations and actions.

I too find it odd that any single group be raised to hero status. Years ago I seem to remember building and agriculture were the country's most dangerous jobs, neither could we easily do without. My best mate and nurse would clean a tramp's feet any day over the time and emotion invested in having to fight to do her job properly in a now very privatised NHS. On te other hand she has colleagues raking it in because of the same changes. It's always a mixed bag of people. One dickwad soldier shouldn't mean all are damned and nor should one true hero make the abuse done by a dickwad ok.

Papers just want to sell papers, buyers often just want to feel 'better than .....' being more patriotic is a armchair way of getting the fix and the media knows it.

[camoguard]

It would seem that In Britain we have this renewed war-time spirit of elevating servicemen to the level of epic Greek protagonists, which isn't necessarily bad in itself, but it seems to be an indulgence where critique is simply not allowed. Individuals which happen to 'support our heroes' possess a moralist conceit as if their raging military advocacy actually has any bearing on the success of the Afghanistan/Iraq struggle.

SNIP

Rant over.

The military of your country represents you to some extent. Therefor, the metaphor is what happened to them would have happened to you except they were there. Sure, some of that is hype to keep people enlisted. But despite being a job, those people get shot at and they are expected to react sensibly and in many cases nonviolently while worrying about IEDs. That's a little heroic.

I'm biased because I was a hero once.