I can't help..

[Meekychuppet]

Maybe, maybe not.

They fixed Iraq, Afghanistan, the financial sector, the housing market. As a result the world is more threatened by terrorism, the economy is in the shitter and the world is poised on the brink of a nuclear stand off if any Arab state gets the bomb.

Yeah, maybe, maybe not...

[Bella Fortuna]

I got sick of the anarchic Nihilist he pretended to be so I tied him to a rocket and sent him off.

You will find that not feeling like you have to be mad all the time makes your life a lot more fun.

The Happy Hatter?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I got sick of the anarchic Nihilist he pretended to be so I tied him to a rocket and sent him off.

You will find that not feeling like you have to be mad all the time makes your life a lot more fun.

The Happy Hatter?

"Mad" works.

[Trolldor]

Maybe, maybe not.

They fixed Iraq, Afghanistan, the financial sector, the housing market. As a result the world is more threatened by terrorism, the economy is in the shitter and the world is poised on the brink of a nuclear stand off if any Arab state gets the bomb.

Yeah, maybe, maybe not...

Would I consider Iraq in better or worse condition than under Suddam Hussein?
Ask the Kurds.

Would I consider Afghanistan better or worse?
Ask all those victims who suffered under Islamic rule - oh wait, most of them are dead.

Finally, the financial Sector and the Housing market aren't the sole responsibility of the US.

[Meekychuppet]

Maybe, maybe not.

They fixed Iraq, Afghanistan, the financial sector, the housing market. As a result the world is more threatened by terrorism, the economy is in the shitter and the world is poised on the brink of a nuclear stand off if any Arab state gets the bomb.

Yeah, maybe, maybe not...

Would I consider Iraq in better or worse condition than under Suddam Hussein?
Ask the Kurds.

Would I consider Afghanistan better or worse?
Ask all those victims who suffered under Islamic rule - oh wait, most of them are dead.

Finally, the financial Sector and the Housing market aren't the sole responsibility of the US.

Better than under Saddam - ask the million plus dead.

Afghanistan better? SRSLY?

The world wide recession was driven the US housing bubble.

[Hermit]

They fixed Iraq, Afghanistan...

...not to mention Vietnam, most of Latin America, Chile...

Also, the lofty aims of enshrining the ideals of freedom et cetera in the US Constitution, "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity", seemingly did not apply to blacks or women until relatively recently.

While Australia was the second nation on earth to extend voting rights to women, "universal suffrage" was not quite what it was advertised to be. Aboriginals were not counted as citizens until 1948 and even then they were not entitled to vote until 1966.

"Freedom, liberty." Those words may give you goosebumps, but they are rather hollow in comparison to their application, and I hope that thought will sober you up somewhat, Mad Hatter. As for "the idea that nobody should be left wanting", that is not even hinted at in what you term "the idea of America".

[Pensioner]

I like this post.

When I read "Freedom, liberty" what the fuck does that mean without context. Freedom for the powerful to screw the weak and the poor, freedom for the multi-nationals to rape the environment in a third world country as long as they make a quick buck, and as for liberty don’t try that if your liberty is at odds with the freedom for the rich and powerful to exploit your mineral wealth in any country.

Freedom from hunger, freedom from want and freedom from ignorance is as far as I’m concerned worth fighting for.

[MrFungus420]

Hmmm...Fuck y'all. (ETA: sorry Hatter, not directed at you)

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!"

Thank you, Gordon Sinclair.

So, yeah, we can screw up. Show me anybody who doesn't.

[nellikin]

Given the fact that the Bush Regime turned down international aid post Katrina, I don't think this point is truly valid. As to looking for help in other ways, the US is constantly bullying other countries into supporting them in their wars almost threatening them if they don't - look at how Germany and France landed on the Axis of Evil after refusing to go to war in Iraq with him. Or the US treatment of NZ after US (and all other) nuclear warships were banned from NZ ports. They don't make friends and allies via diplomacy, they bully the world into treaties with bribes and shows of brute strength.

I commend the extraordinary and highly successful efforts of the US in the rebuilding of post-WW2 Germany - the Marshall plan was truly great and contributed fantastically to the strength and stability of Germany today. But as Gore Vidal so eloquently illustrates, the US have been in perpetual war/invasions since then and don't hang around to fix the civil disorders of the wars the start these days. Instead, they leave voids for the next dictator to fill Do they really expect applause for this?

[Trolldor]

They fixed Iraq, Afghanistan...

...not to mention Vietnam, most of Latin America, Chile...

Also, the lofty aims of enshrining the ideals of freedom et cetera in the US Constitution, "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity", seemingly did not apply to blacks or women until relatively recently.

While Australia was the second nation on earth to extend voting rights to women, "universal suffrage" was not quite what it was advertised to be. Aboriginals were not counted as citizens until 1948 and even then they were not entitled to vote until 1966.

"Freedom, liberty." Those words may give you goosebumps, but they are rather hollow in comparison to their application, and I hope that thought will sober you up somewhat, Mad Hatter. As for "the idea that nobody should be left wanting", that is not even hinted at in what you term "the idea of America".

I should point I said "despite the reality, the idea of America"

ie, America is it should be, as what it is supposed to represent, not what it actually is.

The beauty of America lies not in what it is presented to us as, but in it's potential. The first amendment of the United States constitution is the single most beautiful thing I have ever come across. The idea that opinions are protected by a document which even the highest level of power must obey.
And that they are protected above and before anything else.

You can not tell me that it is not a thing of beauty.

Yes, we must suffer the insolence of imbeciles, but we are free to demonstrate how and why they are so, and we are free to state that we think they are so.
If, of course, we happen to be in America.

We are not. You and me, Seraph, are in a nation that can at any time legislate what is and is not acceptable to say because our right to free speech is at best protected through common law.

[nellikin]

Which is why we need a bill of rights. However, numerous amendments to these noble documents (and tests in court) ensure that the theoretical background to bill of rights/constitutions are washed away to suit the needs oligarchical societies. Australia has probably one of the strongest democracies on earth and yet we still have idiot politicians who do deals with big business and ignore the common good (even more-so if you have the privilege to live in the fine state of political satire we call NSW).

On a side note, the German constitution opens with: "Human dignity is inviolable" (lesson learnt from WW2). Pretty good, methinks

[Trolldor]

Perhaps.

To me, the idea that a nation has as it's first protected the right, the freedom to say what I think without consequence is above, all else, the single most sacred idea in existence. It means that I can organise a peaceful demonstration without opposition. I can write my opinion on any subject matter and be exempt from the personal affront of some bigoted Christian evangelist who fucks little children and pays their parents to keep quiet about it.

[nellikin]

Without opposition? Protecting your freedom of speech ensures that others are allowed to voice theirs too - including right-wing Xtians morons who picketline zeus-knows-what, in an attempt to make anybody they deem to be morally deviant. This allows them the right to peacefully oppose any demonstration you may care to organise...

[Trolldor]

I mean legal opposition.

[FBM]

Like everywhere else I've been, the US has its pros and cons, and they tend to balance each other out. Years from now, when China or Chekyercrotchia or whoever is the superpower, it will be SSDD, just with a different collective noun.