Patriotism and Nationalism

[Link]

I'm happy that I was lucky enough to be born in England and not somewhere more dangerous or where I would have a much shorter life expectancy or where religion was something that was particularily hard to escape without serious repercussions (i'm looking at you in particular muslim theocracies!)

So, you exhibit some nationalism and patriotism.

But I don't feel overly patriotic and certainly wouldn't consider myself nationalistic.... the image that nationalism calls up in a lot of people's minds is Xenophobia, racism (certainly where I come from) and that's not something I can ever align myself with.

The negative images come from the '60s, I think, when anything that sounded even vaguely "pro-war" was supposed to guarantee that you'd never get laid.

I don't know whether I'd define what I feel as patriotism, It's more like appreciation of the relative safety of a place, I'd have no problem up and leaving to an equally safe or safer place if required.

I agree that Nationalism and Patriotism have gained a certain Stigma, certainly in the UK if people claim to be "Proud to be British" they are automatically assumed to share views with the BNP due to their particularily vocal ad campaigns (i.e. blatant racism nicely glazed over with the guise of Patriotism and "we're not racist, we are just proud to be British and want to kick out anyone that's grandad's grandad's grandad wasn't born here" style slogans)

I don't have a problem with people being proud of where they were born and brought up, but more often than not that pride can lead to hate of those that weren't "originally from" your little area of the planet. Which is just silly

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Link, don't let people hijack words. They will try to make you think "nationalism" only means one thing because it suits their agenda. Controlling your words is one more step toward controlling your thoughts.

[Thinking Aloud]

When I first moved to Scotland, 17 years ago, the two things I noticed first were the "English Out" slogans written on a motorway sign just north of the border, and on the door of the Job Centre. That concept of "nationalism" doesn't sit well with me, however I do have a kind of geographism and a kind of pride in that.

If I were to choose somewhere in the UK to live, I'd probably end up back in the Lancashire/Yorkshire area, from a nostalgic feeling of "home" about the region. Lucky to have been born in a physically beautiful place.

There's a song that reflects that a little, from the point of view of someone cut off from their homeland. Sentimental certainly, but pointing to a different sort of pride in the place you came from. (A selection of lyrics:)

She is eternal,
Long before nations' lines were drawn,
When no flags flew, when no armies stood,
My land was born.

And you ask me why I love her, through wars, death and despair,
She is the constant, we who don't care,
And you wonder will I leave her - but how?
I cross over borders but I'm still there now.

How can I leave her?
Where would I start?
Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart,
My land's only borders lie around my heart.

(From Chess, by Tim Rice and the Abba Guys.)

[Loki_999]

I'm neither. I think once the borders eventually come down and we move to be patriotic about humanity and hopefully eventually simply patriotic about life, then the world will be a much better place (sorry to all the undead out there....)

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I've said this before and I have no doubt I will say it again:

Being proud of your country is as ridiculous as being proud of your eye colour, skin colour, the length of your eyelashes or your height. It is an accident of birth - something over which you had no control. Save your pride for the things you do, not the things you just happen to be.

BUT

Like it or not, you are a part of the community of whatever country you ended up calling your own. What is not ridiculous is striving to maintain that which you feel is good about it, while striving to change that which you feel is wrong for the good of that community. The fact is that, unless you are a complete sociopath, that community, that country, is where your friends live, where your loved ones live, it is the place where you have invested time and effort. Just bear in mind that the members of every other community probably feel very much the same about where they live.

As Zilla says, think not "my country, right or wrong," but "my country, how can I help make it better and stop it being such a twat?"

[Robert_S]

I've said this before and I have no doubt I will say it again:

Being proud of your country is as ridiculous as being proud of your eye colour, skin colour, the length of your eyelashes or your height. It is an accident of birth - something over which you had no control. Save your pride for the things you do, not the things you just happen to be.

BUT

Like it or not, you are a part of the community of whatever country you ended up calling your own. What is not ridiculous is striving to maintain that which you feel is good about it, while striving to change that which you feel is wrong for the good of that community. The fact is that, unless you are a complete sociopath, that community, that country, is where your friends live, where your loved ones live, it is the place where you have invested time and effort. Just bear in mind that the members of every other community probably feel very much the same about where they live.

As Zilla says, think not "my country, right or wrong," but "my country, how can I help make it better and stop it being such a twat?"

+1

I believe the quote was "My country right or wrong: If wrong to be made right and if right to be kept right."

Well, I'm for some of those Enlightenment ideals that we in the US give lip service to and occasionally live up to. I am hesitant to use the word "patriotism" about it though. I'm not really down with the patriarchy and the principles I stand for are not exclusive to any one nation.

[Tails Turrosaki]

Nationalism can be "My country is always right" or it can be "My country is a mess and needs help." Or both or something in between.

Patriotism can be "My country will always win any war" or it can be "My country is worth my attention and support."

Education, as is so often the case, may be the key here.

FUCK YES IT IS.

I'm always demanded to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance (which I am currently against until they take "Under God" out of it because it ORIGINALLY WASN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE... Fucktards changing history...) so I stand, but I face away from the flag and do not put my hand on my heart, and I listen to music.

Fuck, next time I'm not standing. I'll ask, "Why?" And I bet he'll say, "Because it's respectful," and then I'll say, "Well, perhaps this country doesn't deserve my respect yet."

I am never becoming patriotic until somebody fixes up this hellhole.

[Tails Turrosaki]

I've said this before and I have no doubt I will say it again:

Being proud of your country is as ridiculous as being proud of your eye colour, skin colour, the length of your eyelashes or your height. It is an accident of birth - something over which you had no control. Save your pride for the things you do, not the things you just happen to be.

BUT

Like it or not, you are a part of the community of whatever country you ended up calling your own. What is not ridiculous is striving to maintain that which you feel is good about it, while striving to change that which you feel is wrong for the good of that community. The fact is that, unless you are a complete sociopath, that community, that country, is where your friends live, where your loved ones live, it is the place where you have invested time and effort. Just bear in mind that the members of every other community probably feel very much the same about where they live.

As Zilla says, think not "my country, right or wrong," but "my country, how can I help make it better and stop it being such a twat?"

This is what I think, except I'm under the age of 18 so my opinion is "invalid" apparently.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is what I think, except I'm under the age of 18 so my opinion is "invalid" apparently.

None of us spring whole from the forehead of Zeus, so who you are now will influence who you will be. Thinking about things like this will help you decide where you want to go when you get older. I chose the Navy when I was 13 or so, and never deviated from that path because I'd thought about it carefully before deciding.

Keep on thinking, even if it makes you fuck-all different from those around you.

[Tails Turrosaki]

This is what I think, except I'm under the age of 18 so my opinion is "invalid" apparently.

None of us spring whole from the forehead of Zeus, so who you are now will influence who you will be. Thinking about things like this will help you decide where you want to go when you get older. I chose the Navy when I was 13 or so, and never deviated from that path because I'd thought about it carefully before deciding.

Keep on thinking, even if it makes you fuck-all different from those around you.

Well, I still have a lot of choosing to do (and I'm not good with choices), so I'll wait and see how my childhood influences me...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is what I think, except I'm under the age of 18 so my opinion is "invalid" apparently.

None of us spring whole from the forehead of Zeus, so who you are now will influence who you will be. Thinking about things like this will help you decide where you want to go when you get older. I chose the Navy when I was 13 or so, and never deviated from that path because I'd thought about it carefully before deciding.

Keep on thinking, even if it makes you fuck-all different from those around you.

Well, I still have a lot of choosing to do (and I'm not good with choices), so I'll wait and see how my childhood influences me...

I got in the habit of writing down "pluses" and "minuses" when I had to make choice. Then I weighted the items in both lists. Purely subjective in most cases, but that's what a decision is about most of the time. It's also a good way to make sure you have worked out your thoughts about a subject. If you can't verbalize an attitude, written or oral, you don't have a grasp on it and you need to consider it some more.

[Tails Turrosaki]

This is what I think, except I'm under the age of 18 so my opinion is "invalid" apparently.

None of us spring whole from the forehead of Zeus, so who you are now will influence who you will be. Thinking about things like this will help you decide where you want to go when you get older. I chose the Navy when I was 13 or so, and never deviated from that path because I'd thought about it carefully before deciding.

Keep on thinking, even if it makes you fuck-all different from those around you.

Well, I still have a lot of choosing to do (and I'm not good with choices), so I'll wait and see how my childhood influences me...

I got in the habit of writing down "pluses" and "minuses" when I had to make choice. Then I weighted the items in both lists. Purely subjective in most cases, but that's what a decision is about most of the time. It's also a good way to make sure you have worked out your thoughts about a subject. If you can't verbalize an attitude, written or oral, you don't have a grasp on it and you need to consider it some more.

That's for when you have time to think about it. Sometimes I'm asked if I want to go to Burger King or Wendy's in the van when we're right by them. I have to choose fast.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's for when you have time to think about it. Sometimes I'm asked if I want to go to Burger King or Wendy's in the van when we're right by them. I have to choose fast.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I went from being a high school kid to a killer in less that 9 months. It was a hard tuition.

Have you ever tried non-verbal responses? Just point at one? In the above case it's really not that much of a choice, is it?

[Tails Turrosaki]

That's for when you have time to think about it. Sometimes I'm asked if I want to go to Burger King or Wendy's in the van when we're right by them. I have to choose fast.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I went from being a high school kid to a killer in less that 9 months. It was a hard tuition.

Have you ever tried non-verbal responses? Just point at one? In the above case it's really not that much of a choice, is it?

But then you'll be all, "NO WAIT!! That one... ACTUALLY NEVER MIND the other one... I LIED the first one..." e_e

[RuleBritannia]

Don't forget jingoism, patriots maybe annoying, nationalists maybe twats, but jingos are dangerous.