Fraternity Bans the Wearing of Confederate Uniforms

[Coito ergo sum]

That being said, this kind of thing always irks me. I think people are hypersensitive.

What race are you Coito?

What does it matter?

I already know you are male, and straight, so the reason I am curious about your race is because I suspect you have never been the subject of obvious forms of discrimination based on race, sex, or orientation.

No, but we're talking about a uniform. Lot's of things are revolting to me, like the mere presence of Mosques and Islamic folk, because they represent, to me, discrimination, misogyny, backwardness, modern day slavery, Sha'ria law, and other awful things, but I don't expect them to worry about my sensibilities on that.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned, they are a private organization and if they want to ban people from wearing Crocs or baseball caps, or confederate uniforms, that's their deal. That kind of thing, however, irks me, because I think it does a disservice to the very thing that it is meant to protect. It imbues the Confederate uniform with power that it can only have if people give it that power.

[Coito ergo sum]

A couple years ago I watched a parade in Suffolk, Virginia. Among all the local fire engines, high school bands and VFW guys were a group of white guys wearing Confederate uniforms and displaying the Stars & Bars. Okay, so they're proud of their heritage. Except that the crowd watching that parade was at least 1/3 black, none of whom clapped while those jerks marched past them. "Hypersensitive" my arse.

If they clapped, then they must not have been too "offended" by it.

A couple years ago I watched a parade in Suffolk, Virginia. Among all the local fire engines, high school bands and VFW guys were a group of white guys wearing Confederate uniforms and displaying the Stars & Bars. Okay, so they're proud of their heritage. Except that the crowd watching that parade was at least 1/3 black, none of whom clapped while those jerks marched past them. "Hypersensitive" my arse.

That's good. And, if the people wearing the uniform get tired of being ignored or jeered, they'll stop wearing the uniform. Win-win.

[Coito ergo sum]

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http://ronpisaturo.com/blog/wp-content/ ... i_flag.jpg[/img-sig]

Both flags symbolize the same thing.

Well, what they symbolize is a matter of opinion.

I have never heard anyone assert, though, that the Nazi flag and the Confederate Battle Flag symbolize the same thing. IF they mean the same thing to you, then that's what they symbolize to you.

[Coito ergo sum]

Both flags symbolize the same thing.

There's a great line from The Mote In God's Eye, set about 1,000 years in the future.

"... he supposed that either Kutuzov knew nothing of the history of communism--after all it had been a very long time ago--or his Russian nationalistic sympathies overcame it. Probably the former, since to most Imperials Lenin was the name of a hero from the past, a man know by legend but no detail. There were many such: Caesar, Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon, Churchill, Stalin, Washington, Jefferson, Trotsky, all more or less contemporaries (except to careful historian). Pre-atomic history tends to compress when seen from far enough away."

Great book. That is a must-read sci-fi book. Niven and Pournelle kick ass.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Both flags symbolize the same thing.

There's a great line from The Mote In God's Eye, set about 1,000 years in the future.

"... he supposed that either Kutuzov knew nothing of the history of communism--after all it had been a very long time ago--or his Russian nationalistic sympathies overcame it. Probably the former, since to most Imperials Lenin was the name of a hero from the past, a man know by legend but no detail. There were many such: Caesar, Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon, Churchill, Stalin, Washington, Jefferson, Trotsky, all more or less contemporaries (except to careful historian). Pre-atomic history tends to compress when seen from far enough away."

Great book. That is a must-read sci-fi book. Niven and Pournelle kick ass.

Try reading "The Battle of MacArthur" on acid.

[kiki5711]

Both flags symbolize the same thing.

There's a great line from The Mote In God's Eye, set about 1,000 years in the future.

"... he supposed that either Kutuzov knew nothing of the history of communism--after all it had been a very long time ago--or his Russian nationalistic sympathies overcame it. Probably the former, since to most Imperials Lenin was the name of a hero from the past, a man know by legend but no detail. There were many such: Caesar, Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon, Churchill, Stalin, Washington, Jefferson, Trotsky, all more or less contemporaries (except to careful historian). Pre-atomic history tends to compress when seen from far enough away."

Great book. That is a must-read sci-fi book. Niven and Pournelle kick ass.

Try reading "The Battle of MacArthur" on acid.

Did you get past page one, or did all the words just fly into your eyes?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Try reading "The Battle of MacArthur" on acid.

Did you get past page one, or did all the words just fly into your eyes?

Acid, scifi, and guns. It was a very good afternoon.

[Martok]

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/downloa ... hp?id=4157[/img-sig]



http://ronpisaturo.com/blog/wp-content/ ... i_flag.jpg[/img-sig]

Both flags symbolize the same thing.

Well, what they symbolize is a matter of opinion.

No its not.

[Coito ergo sum]

[
Of course it is a matter of opinion. 20 years ago, there was no equivalency made between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag, or at least hardly anyone did. What the flags symbolize - what anything symbolizes - is a matter of opinion. What else can it be? Empirical fact?

[maiforpeace]

I'm less concerned about the uniform than I am over the fact that people still join fraternities

That too. Though I suspect the reason why they are banning these uniforms are for the express purpose of attracting more people to join their fraternity, they must experiencing a drop in membership. Otherwise, why ban if they are having so much harmless fun?

That being said, this kind of thing always irks me. I think people are hypersensitive.

What race are you Coito?

What does it matter?

It doesn't - I added the next part to qualify that.

I already know you are male, and straight, so the reason I am curious about your race is because I suspect you have never been the subject of obvious forms of discrimination based on race, sex, or orientation.

No, but we're talking about a uniform. Lot's of things are revolting to me, like the mere presence of Mosques and Islamic folk, because they represent, to me, discrimination, misogyny, backwardness, modern day slavery, Sha'ria law, and other awful things, but I don't expect them to worry about my sensibilities on that.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned, they are a private organization and if they want to ban people from wearing Crocs or baseball caps, or confederate uniforms, that's their deal. That kind of thing, however, irks me, because I think it does a disservice to the very thing that it is meant to protect. It imbues the Confederate uniform with power that it can only have if people give it that power.

It's not just any uniform, it's a confederate uniform. Whether a uniform or a flag, the majority of the uses of the confederate symbol has represented racism since the end of the civil war.

My reason for asking what race you were were just that I don't think you can truly understand how offensive something like that could be unless you have been the target of the hatred a symbol like that represents. It's easy to tell people not to give something power, if you haven't been on the shit end of the stick of exhibitions or actions of racism, religious bigotry, sexism etc. which have been practiced specifically for the purpose of displaying power.

[Martok]

Of course it is a matter of opinion. 20 years ago, there was no equivalency made between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag, or at least hardly anyone did. What the flags symbolize - what anything symbolizes - is a matter of opinion. What else can it be? Empirical fact?

What utter nonsense.

Both flags represent racism, and bondage to the Nth degree.

Two wars were fought to destroy what those flags represent.

[Martok]

[kiki5711]

Of course it is a matter of opinion. 20 years ago, there was no equivalency made between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag, or at least hardly anyone did. What the flags symbolize - what anything symbolizes - is a matter of opinion. What else can it be? Empirical fact?

What utter nonsense.

Both flags represent racism, and bondage to the Nth degree.

Two wars were fought to destroy what those flags represent.

Very frank and to the point!

[Martok]

[Coito ergo sum]

It's not just any uniform, it's a confederate uniform. Whether a uniform or a flag, the majority of the uses of the confederate symbol has represented racism since the end of the civil war.

I get that. I am, however, loathe to breathe life into dead symbols. The best way to give these things power is to try to bury them. You symbolically make the symbol a martyr. IMHO, it's better to ridicule the ridiculous. And, grown men parading around in Confederate uniforms reliving the Confederacy is ridiculous. Point and laugh.

My reason for asking what race you were were just that I don't think you can truly understand how offensive something like that could be unless you have been the target of the hatred a symbol like that represents.

Well, if I can't understand it because of my genetics, then I am unable to counter that statement. I can in no way persuasively claim to know what someone else feels. I do know that a lot of African Americans are not particularly bothered by the uniform. A lot are, of course.

It's easy to tell people not to give something power, if you haven't been on the shit end of the stick of exhibitions or actions of racism, religious bigotry, sexism etc. which have been practiced specifically for the purpose of displaying power.

Perhaps. I don't think it serves anyone well, though, to continually bury offensive symbols. Far better to forcefully confront the message conveyed with an opposing message. Perhaps I have a thicker skin than most, but to me there is nothing some shit bag Nazi could say that would bother me, and Nazis discriminated against almost everyone (Jews, blacks, Catholics, gays, anyone with dark skin, Poles and other slavic peoples, you name it). The Nazis slaughtered the Poles and they were merciless against the Russians - more non-Jewish Poles and Russians died than alll the 6,000,000 Jews in the holocaust, yet nobody takes the "offense" of a non-Jewish Pole or a Russian against Nazi symbols nearly as seriously as the offense taken by Jews.

It's not a contest, of course. But, I don't think it serves an oppressed people to have that oppressed people set up as a group that needs to be "protected" from symbols or words.