Where's Red Celt when you want a laugh!?

[ronmcd]

This point about the whole being better etc is proved to be a fact by Scotland's insistence on remaining in the EU.
Scotland gives up huge sovereignty to the EU, just like everybody else does. And they love it.
Huge decisions affecting Scotland are made in Brussels, 500 miles away. And Salmond can't get enough of it.
It's complete hypocrisy to keep claiming that local decisions are necessarily best, while doing the opposite, and planning the opposite at every turn.

Why don't the nationalists just admit it. They want to split, because they don't like the English, it's the natural racism that we all inherit to some degree, half from the egg and half from the sperm.

Luckily, not all Scots feel the same.

This whole post says so much about you, and your personal bigotries, and nothing about Scotland.

Your EU point is nonsense. Scotland is deciding on political independence from the rest of UK. That's all. Since most politicians in Scotland, and the public in polls, seem to want to remain in EU it would be wholly undemocratic to leave because of an unconnected vote. Your ridiculous (presumably anti EU) logic would mean that if the people vote for independence, Scotland must immediately leave all institutions, organisations, agreements, etc, and lock ourselves away in a cupboard hurling abuse at passers by.

As for the anti English stuff, you're a disgrace.

[John_fi_Skye]

I'm not one of those who claim that local decisions are necessarily best. In relation to this as a structural issue, I believe local decisions are best for some things, and that therefore we should elect local authorities. I then next believe that national bodies should be elected to take national decisions, eg on economic policy. I'm actually not too bothered whether those decisions are taken at the level of Scotland, or the UK, or the United States of Europe, but I'm thoroughly pissed off that they're currently being taken at ALL THREE. Yes, democracy is a Good Thing, and better than anything else that's so far been tried, but that shouldn't be taken to mean we should go on and on getting more and more of it.

Leaving the structural issue aside, the reason I'm voting Yes - as I've said already - is that throughout my whole life Westminster has imposed on me policies I don't like, because of the nature of the whole-UK electorate. I'm optimistic that with only the Scottish electorate voting, we'll get policies that are more to my taste.

It's fuck-all to do with any alleged hatred of English folk in my case, and I believe in the case of lots of people I speak to, read and listen to.

[mistermack]

As for the anti English stuff, you're a disgrace.

Ha, at least I'm not a NATIONALIST !

Anyway, you only say that cos I'm English.

if the people vote for independence, Scotland must immediately leave all institutions, organisations, agreements, etc,

Yes, that's what INDEPENDENCE means.
That's the essence of the con. The question is, should Scotland be an independent country.
The truth is, that's the last thing you want.

[ronmcd]

As for the anti English stuff, you're a disgrace.

Ha, at least I'm not a NATIONALIST !

You certainly sound like one, to a far greater degree than I ever do

Anyway, you only say that cos I'm English.

I wouldn't know, or care, if you are English. Have you told me that in the past? Possibly. Your nationality isn't relevant to whether you're talking shite. You're talking shite.

if the people vote for independence, Scotland must immediately leave all institutions, organisations, agreements, etc,

Yes, that's what INDEPENDENCE means.
That's the essence of the con. The question is, should Scotland be an independent country.
The truth is, that's the last thing you want.

You have no clue what I want or think, but you damn sure won't accept it when I or John tell you. We must by lying, because YOU say we hate the English. The referendum is about Scotland being independent, it isn't a vote about leaving EU (or staying in), or getting rid of the Queen, or joining or leaving NATO, or UN, or what political party we want in charge, or even what currency we want to use. We are voting on the principle of being an independent country, and other policies and adjustments to memberships, new memberships, etc etc will be made in the future. Staying in EU simply makes sense as most wouldnt want to leave, and EU won't want us to leave.

It's interesting that any apparent hatred in this thread has never come from those in favour of independence.

[mistermack]

We must by lying, because YOU say we hate the English.

That was funnneeeeeeee.
You say I accuse you of lying, and then come out with a big fat lie, to follow it.

Is that Ironic ?

[mistermack]

I'm not one of those who claim that local decisions are necessarily best. In relation to this as a structural issue, I believe local decisions are best for some things, and that therefore we should elect local authorities. I then next believe that national bodies should be elected to take national decisions, eg on economic policy. I'm actually not too bothered whether those decisions are taken at the level of Scotland, or the UK, or the United States of Europe, but I'm thoroughly pissed off that they're currently being taken at ALL THREE. Yes, democracy is a Good Thing, and better than anything else that's so far been tried, but that shouldn't be taken to mean we should go on and on getting more and more of it.

Leaving the structural issue aside, the reason I'm voting Yes - as I've said already - is that throughout my whole life Westminster has imposed on me policies I don't like, because of the nature of the whole-UK electorate. I'm optimistic that with only the Scottish electorate voting, we'll get policies that are more to my taste.

It's fuck-all to do with any alleged hatred of English folk in my case, and I believe in the case of lots of people I speak to, read and listen to.

John, I said Nationalists, not you, and I said dislike, not hate.
But to your point about policies, that's all fair enough. I've had exactly the same as you.
I've always been on the left in my politics, although I did vote conservative once, to keep Neil Kinnock out.
But I well remember a time when the Unions were imposing their policies on everybody, without ever winning an election. It can work both ways.
At one time, you couldn't move in this country, without the assent of the unions.
I remember British Leyland had a time, when the night shift said the floor was too cold, and so they brought in wooden boards to walk on, and the day shift wouldn't walk on the wooden boards, so for months on end, the boards were put down and taken up, at the end of every shift.

We all payed a price for it, the country was in the shit.
I hated Maggie Thatcher, but I did vote for her once. Someone had to take the country out of that mind-set, it was absolutely ludicrous.

[John_fi_Skye]

Fair enough, Mistermack. I hated Thatcher, and would never have voted for her for any reason; but I also hated Arthur Scargill, who was every bit as narcissistic and megalomaniac as she, and no closer to the altruism that I admire in sadly very few politicians.

[Clinton Huxley]

It's all shuffling deckchairs and organising the quoits tournament. The corporations are on the bridge.

[Hermit]

It's all shuffling deckchairs and organising the quoits tournament. The corporations are on the bridge.

...and 70% of the bridge is located in London, New York, Tokyo and Frankfurt.

[mistermack]

It's all shuffling deckchairs and organising the quoits tournament. The corporations are on the bridge.

...and 70% of the bridge is located in London, New York, Tokyo and Frankfurt.

Yeh but, it's not really them who have us by the balls.
It's the people with the gigantic lumps of capital. The other guys just work for them.
We all depend on the capital, to finance virtually everything. It's all on tick.

All the houses, factories, offices, companies, all got massive overdrafts.
Everyone is working to feed the gigantic capital-holders.
And you can't ask them to pay a bit, or they just fuck off somewhere else, taking their money with them.

Most of the world now is living like the skintest people on the roughest council housing estate.
Everything they've got, they've borrowed to buy, and they have no chance of getting anywhere, they're just constantly working to pay the interest.

It's hidden, behind some semblance of comfort, but that's how it is.
We're addicted to borrowing, which has forced the price of everything up, which has forced everyone to borrow more.

[ronmcd]

We must by lying, because YOU say we hate the English.

That was funnneeeeeeee.
You say I accuse you of lying, and then come out with a big fat lie, to follow it.

Is that Ironic ?

So ... you say I'm a nationalist, and "Why don't the nationalists just admit it. They want to split, because they don't like the English, it's the natural racism that we all inherit to some degree, half from the egg and half from the sperm."

So I stand corrected, I "dislike" the English then? We must all still be lying about it though, when we say it isn't about hating (or disliking) the English.

[ronmcd]

It's all shuffling deckchairs and organising the quoits tournament. The corporations are on the bridge.

...and 70% of the bridge is located in London, New York, Tokyo and Frankfurt.

Yeh but, it's not really them who have us by the balls.
It's the people with the gigantic lumps of capital. The other guys just work for them.
We all depend on the capital, to finance virtually everything. It's all on tick.

All the houses, factories, offices, companies, all got massive overdrafts.
Everyone is working to feed the gigantic capital-holders.
And you can't ask them to pay a bit, or they just fuck off somewhere else, taking their money with them.

Most of the world now is living like the skintest people on the roughest council housing estate.
Everything they've got, they've borrowed to buy, and they have no chance of getting anywhere, they're just constantly working to pay the interest.

It's hidden, behind some semblance of comfort, but that's how it is.
We're addicted to borrowing, which has forced the price of everything up, which has forced everyone to borrow more.

Wouldn't it be good to change that system, to a degree at least?

Could that ever happen at Westminster?

One of the reasons some people will vote yes. Westminster politics isn't just part of the system which takes from the poor and gives to the rich, it's one of the worst examples.

[mistermack]

So ... you say I'm a nationalist, and "Why don't the nationalists just admit it. They want to split, because they don't like the English, it's the natural racism that we all inherit to some degree, half from the egg and half from the sperm."

So I stand corrected, I "dislike" the English then? We must all still be lying about it though, when we say it isn't about hating (or disliking) the English.

I have no idea if you consider yourself a nationalist or not. You certainly write like one.
But you've made it very clear over and over again, that you don't like the English political party leaders, or their governments, or their policies.
So are you saying you like the English, except for their leaders, their parties, and the way they vote at elections?

Good man. It's beginning to sound like Monty Python in reverse :

[Hermit]

It's all shuffling deckchairs and organising the quoits tournament. The corporations are on the bridge.

...and 70% of the bridge is located in London, New York, Tokyo and Frankfurt.

Yeh but, it's not really them who have us by the balls.
It's the people with the gigantic lumps of capital. The other guys just work for them.

Hey, when I mentioned London, New York, Tokyo and Frankfurt, I was alluding to the stock exchanges where owners of capital do their wheeling and dealing. And Clinton Huxley didn't mention "the other guys just work for them" either, as far as I can tell.

[mistermack]

Could that ever happen at Westminster?

One of the reasons some people will vote yes. Westminster politics isn't just part of the system which takes from the poor and gives to the rich, it's one of the worst examples.

So Scotland can get by without capital then?
Good luck with that.