The BNP may appear on BBC's Question Time

[Animavore]

Agree with Dev here to an extent.
I used to read posts from BNP supporters on Virgin Media news articles (only site I had in work) and they always acted like the victim and the oppressed. The BNP is the only party speaking out against Islam and Sharia law while other parties are giving them concessions. Something which is a concern for a lot of Britons and the only party speaking against mass immigration. A lot of people are going to be enticed by that. Existing BNP supporters are only going to think that they were being victimized last night and it will probably strengthen them.

I can't see their support growing to any where near the amount Dev suggests though. Jack Straw pointed out that half of the Afro-Caribbeans under 16 in England have either a white mother or father. In many parts of England black and white people hang around together listening to hip-hop going to soccer matches etc... I think the opposition to the BNP is too great for them to ever gain any major foothold in England.

[Feck]

Agree with Dev here to an extent.
I used to read posts from BNP supporters on Virgin Media news articles (only site I had in work) and they always acted like the victim and the oppressed. The BNP is the only party speaking out against Islam and Sharia law while other parties are giving them concessions. Something which is a concern for a lot of Britons and the only party speaking against mass immigration. A lot of people are going to be enticed by that. Existing BNP supporters are only going to think that they were being victimized last night and it will probably strengthen them.

I can't see their support growing to any where near the amount Dev suggests though. Jack Straw pointed out that half of the Afro-Caribbeans under 16 in England have either a white mother or father. In many parts of England black and white people hang around together listening to hip-hop going to soccer matches etc... I think the opposition to the BNP is too great for them to ever gain any major foothold in England.

Depends if the economy gets worse ,as Dev said .When peoples apparent standard of living takes a bad turn people look around for a scape goat .

And I know an awful lot of racists just waiting for a legitimate voice for their everyday working man in the street type casual racism.

[Animavore]

Agree with Dev here to an extent.
I used to read posts from BNP supporters on Virgin Media news articles (only site I had in work) and they always acted like the victim and the oppressed. The BNP is the only party speaking out against Islam and Sharia law while other parties are giving them concessions. Something which is a concern for a lot of Britons and the only party speaking against mass immigration. A lot of people are going to be enticed by that. Existing BNP supporters are only going to think that they were being victimized last night and it will probably strengthen them.

I can't see their support growing to any where near the amount Dev suggests though. Jack Straw pointed out that half of the Afro-Caribbeans under 16 in England have either a white mother or father. In many parts of England black and white people hang around together listening to hip-hop going to soccer matches etc... I think the opposition to the BNP is too great for them to ever gain any major foothold in England.

Depends if the economy gets worse ,as Dev said .When peoples apparent standard of living takes a bad turn people look around for a scape goat .

I guess. Hopefully that won't happen (seriously I'm pushing on 3 months unemployed a friend of mine finally got a job yesterday after nearly 8 months out of work so many people I know are fucked right now )

[devogue]

I never said that the BNP would reach the levels of support the Nazis got in 1933, but I can see them increasing their share of the vote to 10-15% if issues like immigration are not sorted out.

The latest figures suggest the UK population could increase by 10 million people in the next 25 years - if that happens there will be serious issues to be faced.

Imagine the BNP won, say, four seats at the next general election and there was a hung parliament - then they could have serious influence.

[Lozzer]

I say bring it on. The idiots in this country need to be reminded why Nazism is bad.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...Depends if the economy gets worse ,as Dev said .When peoples apparent standard of living takes a bad turn people look around for a scape goat...

Why would we need a scapegoat? We know the tory-boy wanker-bankers are to blame. We just need people to focus on that.

[Lozzer]

...Depends if the economy gets worse ,as Dev said .When peoples apparent standard of living takes a bad turn people look around for a scape goat...

Why would we need a scapegoat? We know the tory-boy wanker-bankers are to blame. We just need people to focus on that.

That's kind of hard when the papers are full of stories regarding immigration and the 'destruction' which its causing.

[Rum]

Upon reflection I think the programme was badly thought through. It was almost exclusively about having a go at the BNP and not a 'normal' QT. They should extreme partiality and I think the BBC lost out because of that. In a 'normal' QT Griffin would have had more than enough rope to hang himself with, conssidering the news items around at the moment.

Having said that I don't agree with Dev - I think Griffin's appearance will convince many who sort of thought there might be something for them in the BNP that they represent shit.

I do however also agree that they will grow before they shrink. Le Pen's National Front in France certainly did. They got 15% of the vote in 97 and under 5 at the last election.

[BlackBart]

I'm afraid I disagree entirely with the consensus here about the programme and how it will work negatively for the BNP.

Very well argued, dev - some very important points.

It was a Nazi-baiting exercise, but I dont think Griffin came out of it with any credibility (Neither did Straw). He came out of it at best a vicitm (Who'd want to vote for a victim?) at worst an illogical watered down Nazi apologist buffoon. (Not even card carrying Nazis like him apparently... http://www.national-front.org.uk/ngsays.htm)

Doesn't mean we can ignore him though and, as you say, we need to learn the lessons of the past or we're doomed to repeat it.

[devogue]

One other extremely important observation I made - in the 1980's and even up until about ten years ago Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were absolute pariahs within Ireland, the UK and internationally. They were seen as murdering scum by many - unrepentant terrorists with the blood of hundreds if not thousands on their hands. Their politics was extreme, brutal, dirty and ugly and the shout went up for a long time that this particular leopard couldn't change its spots.

Well they did change, with small, painfully slow steps - nice shiny suits, an electoral mandate, talk about moving on, reconciliation, blah blah blah...now they govern me and my fellow countrymen.

I can see what you're saying about the BNP re-branding as a "moderate" and a supposedly "non-racist" party...but that's a very gross distortion of facts.

Adams and McGuinness were not absolute pariahs in ireland, the UK and internationally in the 1980s....in the same way Nelson mandella wasn't considered a pariah and a terrorist. The British government attempted to brand them as pariahs by using Adams/McGuinness' association with the IRA and Mandella's association with the ANC civil rights movement as the reason....e.g. "we don't talk to terrorists" etcetera. But it didn't work.

Within Northern Ireland Adams and McGuinness were seen as pariahs by not only the whole of the Unionist community, but also by people from a Nationalist background. This was reflected at the ballot box during the 1980's when around 90% of the entire electorate in Northern Ireland consistently rejected them.

As for international support, PIRA enjoyed support from NORAID (which was constantly on the radar of the US government), Libya, ETA in Spain, the PLO, Hezbollah and other groups - but as for overwhelming international support? No - it is fair to say they held pariah status.

The major difference with the Adams, McGuinness and Mandela is that Mandela had absolutely overwhelming popular and moral support for his position in South Africa. Apartheid was recognised internationally as an aberation and the white minority government in South Africa rightly faced sanctions from the international community. Britain never had to face such sanctions because it was clear that the IRA and Sinn Fein only enjoyed marginal support and the overwhelming majority of the population despised them.

The truth is that at the heart of the Sinn Féin political movement was civil rights as well as republicanism and it was deeply embarrassing for the british government, who supported the equivalent of apartheid in NI for decades to have to confront the reality that they couldn't sustain the status quo any longer.

PIRA's campaign grew out of the wholly justified Civil Rights movement of the late 1960's, but they took it way, way too far. Also, there was a crucial difference between the Civi Right's movement and PIRA's campaign - the Civil Rights Campaigners demanded the following (source: Wikipedia NICRA article):

*one man, one vote which meant extension of the local government franchise from ratepayers to all those over 21
*an end to gerrymandering which meant Unionists were elected even in districts with Catholic majorities
*an end to discrimination in housing
*an end to discrimination in jobs
*the disbandment of the B-Specials, a Protestant special constabulary, which many viewed as sectarian.

- while PIRA and ultimately Sinn Fein, piggy backed a wholly just and ethically correct movement to demand a United Ireland and an end to British "occupation". The lines were blurred, but PIRA, born of the Civil Rights movement quickly grew in to a hideous monster whose goals were far removed from its parent ideology.

Furthermore, anyone with a passing interest in irish history will remember how badly the tories needed the unionist/loyalist vote in the 1980s and how the news-gagging strategy for NI political parties backfired spectacularly for the british government. Even more so now that we know that Adams/McGuinness were trying to convert republicans from an armed struggle to a political and peaceful fight for civil rights and republicanism.

I agree with all of this. As I said, the leopards began to change their spots - even the most die-hard Unionists (apart from dicks like Jim Allister) realise the Shinners have done a 180 turn and have now completely disowned violence. However, while Nick Griffin is playing the same game he is nowhere near as trustworthy. In fact, he's full of shit. Also, as for the censorship issue with Sinn Fein - Peter Hain and those who wish to deny the BNP air time would do well to read up on that particularly grubby little piece of history.

We also knew at the time that Mandella was not a terrorist....and to this day, I don't think thatcher has apologised for that dark period in british history.

She was completely wrong to say what she said, but her personal remarks and her warped definition of terrorism is beside the point. Armed resistance should be the final recourse for a group which has exhausted every avenue in the search of an ethical solution to an injustice, as happened with the ANC in South Africa - terrorism is armed action by those who have not yet exhausted every avenue in pursuit of their goals - PIRA, for instance, or RIRA today.

Also, Britain recognised the evil of apartheid with sanctions against South Africa in the 1970's and 80's.

You do raise some interesting points...but, I think you're over-egging the possible impact of Griffins appearance last night and your overall view of where the threat of fascism is coming from is flawed.

Perhaps, but they were expected to gain 10% of the vote in the last Euro elections. They failed miserably, but the oxygen of publicity and the thick end of a dumbed down electorate might change things.

In other words, what happened last night was just an entertaining circus...like a DIY hanging. the BNP don't posses the intellect to advance their cause beyond a very small minority of small-minded racist bigots in the UK.

I think they do possess the intellect and I don't think that the minority is as small as you think it is - I also think that people will let certain principles go if they feel their culture, family, community, whatever is pushed in to a corner.

What you should REALLY be worried about is who the conservatives are cosying up to in Europe (such as those nutjobs in eastern europe)....or political parties like the Pirate Party who are making great headway in the EU elections recently...i.e. parties who have a more sophisticated brand of fascism where racism and the sort of bile that we saw last night is much better disguised.

Interesting - you reckon that European fascism is more of a danger than just the BNP. It's ironic that the BNP want to withdraw completely from Europe - perhaps the British are damned if they do, damned if they don't...

I would argue that this is where the real threat lies.....and it's a mistake to suggest that the BNP represents fascism in the UK. They represent a very jaded and antiquated version of fascism....entertaining to watch ridiculed on the BBC, but the contemporary neo-fascists are far smarter and much savvier than the likes of nick griffin...

I would be careful though. We live in an era of banner headlines, celebrity, soundbites and low attention thresholds -ideal for the likes of the BNP.

[Chauncey Gardner]

Many thanks for the response, Chauncey - I'm up to my eyes at the moment but I'll try to respond tomorrow!

no worries. I'm obviously not (up to my eyes) so take your time. no rush. given the choice of doing vat returns or waxing lyrical on here about neo-fascism...there's just no competition.

[Chauncey Gardner]

this was too funny not to post...

[klr]

[The Red Fox]

this was too funny not to post...

Spot on.

I don't know if anyone picked up on this little gem or not:

"Skin colour is irrelevant" - Nick Griffin

I hope that one haunts him for many years to come.

[Rum]

from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8322322.stm..I tend to agree.

Griffin complaint over BBC 'mob'

BNP leader Nick Griffin is to complain to the BBC over his controversial appearance on Question Time, saying he had faced a "lynch mob".

Mr Griffin claims the normal format of Thursday's programme was changed and it should not have been held in London. The fallout from the show - watched by eight million people - has intensified, with Mr Griffin's fellow panellists saying he had been "shown up". But critics said the show had given the BNP huge publicity.

The BNP claimed 3,000 people had registered to join the party during and after the broadcast.

The BBC has defended the show, which was watched by four times its normal audience but also attracted a large number of complaints, saying it had a duty to be impartial and that audience members had selected the questions which set the programme's agenda.

More than 240 complainants felt the show was biased against the BNP, while more than 100 of the complaints were about Mr Griffin being allowed to appear on Question Time.

In addition, more than 50 people contacted the BBC to show their appreciation for the programme.

Mr Griffin, who was one of two BNP candidates to be elected to the European Parliament earlier this year, faced robust questioning about his views on race, immigration and the Holocaust from a largely hostile audience.