Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[mistermack]

So you think if your dad robs a bank, you should go to prison?

No, and that doesn't follow from what I said.

Sure it does. You're justifying the Palestinian killing of Israelis on the grounds of Israel being founded on Palestinian land, when the Israelis alive today weren't alive at that time, nor did they choose to be born ion Israel.

Justifying such is no different, logically, than justifying your execution for a murder committed by your father.

No, it's totally different.
I'm justifying a WAR of liberation. Not murder or execution.
If you take your attitude, then every death in a war that isn't a combatant is either murder or execution. George Bush and Tony Blair should have been executed long ago then, alone with most of the British and American forces.

The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, no chance against the Israeli/American occupying army.
They do what they can. I'm sure they would prefer to fight a "clean" war if they could, but they have no chance of that.

The Israelis deliberately keep the war going anyway. It suits them. It gives them the excuse to keep stealing land, and make life unbearable for the Palestinians. It's EXACTLY what they want, and they make sure it keeps going.

I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.

Where were they born?

Would not forcibly relocating them be unjust, in the sense that it punishes them for the decisions made by their forebears -- and just as pertinent, by the forebears of the Palestinians?

Oh dear, some Israelis might suffer an injustice? Oh, how awful !

[mistermack]

So you think that if your parents steal something, then once it passes to you, it's legitimate?

The problem with that is that it's the Jews themselves who don't agree with you.
They are demanding back, and getting, valuables and property that were taken by the Nazis. Even though it's all been passed on, and sold on, many times.

How come it only works one way? How come Jewish property must be returned, and Palestinian birthright is gone forever? Because it's one rule for the Jews, and the complete opposite for the Palestinians.

And what I justify is a war of liberation, not murder.
You steal someone's home, you take the chance of harm. And so do your kids.

Does that mean Germany ought to get East Prussia back from Russia and West Prussia from Poland?

It means that Germany should not have started aggressive wars against peaceful neighbors, and the people in those areas should be free, should have equal rights, and shouldn't be subject to massive invasive immigration of a discriminatory religious-based nature.
Is that asking too much?

[mistermack]

I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.

So you wouldn't give citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?

Certainly not. Not unless I was running a country that WANTED immigration. And they qualified as desirable immigrants.

[Blind groper]

Oh. I see. More moralising.

No, not more moralising.

What I gave was pretty much a stupid answer to a blitheringly stupid question. My answer was stupid because I lacked the information to give a smart answer, and I regret even trying now. Why your question was so blitheringly stupid is something you will have to answer for yourself.

One of the great fallacies in debate is trying compare apples and oranges. East Prussia is not Palestine. I cannot equate them, and neither can you, since we do not know how the people there are affected and how they feel. I do know that the Palestinian people were devastated by the formation of Israel and retain a deep resentment, and often hatred, towards Israel to this day. I do not know how the people of East Prussia feel, and I doubt you do either.

[Audley Strange]

I think I can sort this mess out.

Give Rome to the Jews.

[Svartalf]

That's what I advocated several pages back

[Audley Strange]

That's what I advocated several pages back

I know.

In all seriousness, neither side want a solution because their political systems and in fact both societies are actually heavily defined by the sustained hostilities. Both sides act like fucking children and the level of debate never seems to get much more sophisticated that "but they started it."

It could be stopped pretty fucking quickly if the Political and Corporate classes were interested in its cessation.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No, it's totally different.
I'm justifying a WAR of liberation. Not murder or execution.
If you take your attitude, then every death in a war that isn't a combatant is either murder or execution. George Bush and Tony Blair should have been executed long ago then, alone with most of the British and American forces.

Then, if this is a war, it's hardly fair to critique the Israelis for wanting to live.

And tell me, is it not a war crime to target civilians?

The Palestinians have nothing to fight with, no chance against the Israeli/American occupying army.
They do what they can. I'm sure they would prefer to fight a "clean" war if they could, but they have no chance of that.

The "American" occupying army ... that's rich. Hey, maybe next you'll argue that Balfour was American, wot-wot?

The Israelis deliberately keep the war going anyway. It suits them. It gives them the excuse to keep stealing land, and make life unbearable for the Palestinians. It's EXACTLY what they want, and they make sure it keeps going.

It takes two to tango. Tell us, who was it who refused a Palestinian state in 1948?

Oh dear, some Israelis might suffer an injustice? Oh, how awful !

You obviously think that a double-standard is fair.

I'll return to this conversation when you put more thought into it. I'm uninterested in providing you an audience for your dribble. Tighten up your points, apply your logic equally to both sides, and lose the vapid rhetoric, because right now you sound like a drone.

[Blind groper]

Audley

Strong emotion certainly is a major factor in the continued hostilities, and on both sides.

And you are correct that people have to rise above those negative emotions before anything like a solution will be found.
The question of "who started it" has a very clear cut answer, but that will not solve anything. My view is that a solution must come from Israel, since they hold the power. Nothing from the Palestinians is going to work, since they do not have the power to implement any such solutions.

The best solution is also obvious, and has been for a long time. Israel, however, like military conquerors before them, is not prepared to release the territory they stole from others by force of arms.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I do know that the Palestinian people were devastated by the formation of Israel and retain a deep resentment, and often hatred, towards Israel to this day.

Feelings don't justify murder.

[Blind groper]

who was it who refused a Palestinian state in 1948?

It was both. However, I know what you are driving at. You are suggesting that, because the Palestinians in 1948 were not prepared to hand over half of their homeland meekly, they are at fault.

In hindsight, that is probably what they should have done. However, imagine that this had happened in the USA. A powerful army from another country took control of the USA. They kicked you out of your home at gun point. They then offered the American people the retention of half your country, and not the best half, if you would just be meek and mild and not fight back.

Yeah. I can just see you meekly accepting such a deal. I know I would not have.

[Blind groper]

Feelings don't justify murder.

I have consistently agreed with this. But don't forget that Israel carries out more than ten times the murders that the Palestinians do.

[Thumpalumpacus]

who was it who refused a Palestinian state in 1948?

It was both. However, I know what you are driving at. You are suggesting that, because the Palestinians in 1948 were not prepared to hand over half of their homeland meekly, they are at fault.

In hindsight, that is probably what they should have done. However, imagine that this had happened in the USA. A powerful army from another country took control of the USA. They kicked you out of your home at gun point. They then offered the American people the retention of half your country, and not the best half, if you would just be meek and mild and not fight back.

Yeah. I can just see you meekly accepting such a deal. I know I would not have.

Your complaint above about "apples and oranges" takes on a very sharp relief when followed up by this hypothetical example.

The essence of your point is that it is moral for Palestinians to nurture past grievances, but not Israelis, nor Germans, for that matter. Your argument looks very gerrymandered, and structurally weaker for its special pleading.

I have consistently agreed with this ["Feelings don't justify murder" -- Thump]. But don't forget that Israel carries out more than ten times the murders that the Palestinians do.

I haven't forgot that, as my posts continually have made clear: I think Israel shares in the wrongdoing, without a doubt.

But when you write, "[...] the Palestinian people were devastated by the formation of Israel and retain a deep resentment, and often hatred, towards Israel to this day" ... what is your purpose if not justifying their behavior? What other point might be served by such an obvious observation?

No, you're trying to explain why it is justifiable for Palestinians to murder Israeli civilians.

[mistermack]

Then, if this is a war, it's hardly fair to critique the Israelis for wanting to live.

I'm amazed. Have you still not noticed? I'm criticising Israelis for wanting to live IN SOMEONE ELSE'S COUNTRY.
Do you still not get the difference?

And tell me, is it not a war crime to target civilians?

Not to me, not if those civilians have invaded your country.

The "American" occupying army ... that's rich. Hey, maybe next you'll argue that Balfour was American, wot-wot?

I'm not blind. It's american planes, american helicopters, the pilots and soldiers nearly all have american accents, and the MONEY is american.

It takes two to tango. Tell us, who was it who refused a Palestinian state in 1948?

I believe that the Arabs refused the PARTITION OF THEIR COUNTRY in 1948. Just as I would refuse half of my property back from a mugger with him keeping the other half.

You obviously think that a double-standard is fair.

Absolutely. Invaders don't deserve the same consideration as their innocent victims. What's wrong with that?

I'll return to this conversation when you put more thought into it. I'm uninterested in providing you an audience for your dribble. Tighten up your points, apply your logic equally to both sides, and lose the vapid rhetoric, because right now you sound like a drone

You sound frustrated. Maybe that's because you are defending the indefensible.

[Blind groper]

The essence of your point is that it is moral for Palestinians to nurture past grievances, but not Israelis, nor Germans, for that matter. Your argument looks very gerrymandered, and structurally weaker for its special pleading.

But when you write, "[...] the Palestinian people were devastated by the formation of Israel and retain a deep resentment, and often hatred, towards Israel to this day" ... what is your purpose if not justifying their behavior? What other point might be served by such an obvious observation?

No, you're trying to explain why it is justifiable for Palestinians to murder Israeli civilians.

"Moral to nurture past grievances"????
No, I have never said that. I have said I understand the way Palestinians feel and why they act. i did not say it was moral. Do you not understand the difference?

Nor have I said it is justifiable for Palestinians to murder. Understanding something is not the same as justifying it. I have told you this many times. Why can you not understand that point?