Libertarianism

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Seth
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:28 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Ah, rationalizations in self-interest. I see.
Yes, rational self-interest is a component of Libertarianism. You pay for what you use, and you get to use what you pay for.
But the individual component would be insufficient in and of itself to construct the Interstate Highway system. So we wouldn't have that.
Fallacious and unproven assumption. That sort of highway system would inevitably emerge in a Libertarian society as a function of economic necessity, but it would be privately owned and built using investment funds from voluntary investors, and no, it wouldn't be free to use it, you'd have to pay a toll.

The benefit of that system is that if you don't care to use the interstate system, you don't have to pay for it.

There's a toll road east of Denver that completely bypasses the downtown traffic snarls on I-25 that was built (unfortunately) using government force and coercion, but which is now owned by a foreign company which charges about $15 to drive the whole route. I use it whenever I need to travel north around Denver because it's worth it to me to avoid the traffic jams on the interstate through the city. It's a pity that it wasn't built completely using private money, but it's well-maintained, traffic is light, and it's much faster than using the public highway, so I'm willing to pay the toll.

On the other hand, when I'm NOT driving on it, I don't have to pay for it.

That's how it should be with ALL highways.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:55 pm

This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:04 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
In this case he actually provided an interesting counterexample.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Woodbutcher » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:08 pm

Seth wrote:
Woodbutcher wrote:I'm interested in the premise of individual freedom to choose my course through life according to what I see is the best approach, avoiding harm to others to the best of my ability, and helping others along without giving some a free ride. Too often there are people who expect special consideration. What controls does a Libertarian society put in existence to give equal justice to all without prejudice? What about healthcare to all? I think a lot of our money is wasted on needless expense by people with fictitious complaints. Who would decide the need? I have many questions and would appreciate some reading resources as well. I have an open mind on this. I do not troll. Seth? CES? Laklak? Opposing viewpoints also sought. But keep things factual. :prof:
The essence of Libertarianism is the absolute right to freedom of consensual contract and the absence of government coercion in the provision of government services. What Libertarianism is not is rugged individualism sans any social contract. It's precisely the opposite. Libertarianism holds as its founding principle the requirement that every person avoid initiating force or fraud upon others, and that every person also has the right to respond to the initiation of force or fraud against. This does not mean that Libertarianism eschews the rule of law, criminal justice systems or government, it simply means that it is the duty of the individual to both protect and enforce his rights, and it is not the duty of the government to protect anyone from themselves.

But nothing in Libertarianism prohibits persons from voluntarily associating with others in the interests of forming a workable society. What it does prohibit is the imposition of restrictions on the freedom of action of anyone unless that action constitutes the initiation of force or fraud upon another.

Thus, things like mandatory zoning laws that dictate what one may or may not do on one's own property that purport to control non-exported harm (in particular aesthetic regulations) are forbidden in Libertarianism because what one's property looks like is a matter of freedom of personal expression. If, however, one's conduct on one's property exports harm to a neighbor, then it is an initiation of force or fraud that may be responded to and controlled. But the proper mechanism for such complaints is not the legislature and laws that control the behavior of everyone, it's private suit seeking injunction or compensation for harm ACTUALLY done to the neighbor.

As to health care, Libertarianism maintains that no individual is responsible for the medical care of another unless they have voluntarily assumed such liability as a part of a private contract between two parties. Such contracts would include, by way of example, parents having liability for their minor children's health care, and spouses being liable for each other, if that's how they choose to formulate their domestic contract.

Libertarianism does not allow the government to compel someone to pay for others health care against their will, as each person is ultimately responsible for their own health, safety and welfare. However, the concept of enlightened self interest, which is also part of Libertarian thought, holds that charity and altruism are rational adult personality behaviors that contribute to the smooth functioning of society, and that it is in the best interests of every person to make sure that the poor, indigent, sick and disabled are cared for properly, so as to enhance social stability and order. But each person is free to decide for themselves how charitable and altruistic they wish to be.

This freedom to disassociate from undesirable social misfits who demand that others labor on their behalf causes those in genuine need to humble themselves and actually ASK for assistance in the knowledge that no one is OBLIGATED to assist them rather than assuming, as the socialist does, that they are entitled to appropriate the labor of others for their own benefit by force. This in turn leads to a society of voluntary cooperation and altruism rather than a society of coercive, compelled obligation.

The control mechanism that prevents the apocalyptic societal destruction that socialists insist will absolutely follow in the wake of a Libertarian society is simple human nature and the traits of well-formed, adult personalities in people who understand the need to participate in society in order to enjoy the benefits of that society.

The pathology of socialism destroys the well-formed adult personality and replaces it with a nearly psychotic dependent personality that is stuck in an infantile stage of development where nothing beyond the individual's personal needs and desires is important, and each socialist is at war with every other socialist to get their "fair share" of the pie that the government offers.

Libertarians control such atavistic and pathological selfishness in members of a Libertarian society through direct rejection of such behavior patterns. Because Libertarians are free to trade and associate with whom they please, they are also free, as individuals or as a community to REFUSE to trade or associate with a social misfit who insists on initiating force and fraud against others. Such social "shunning" can be complete, with merchants refusing to sell to such persons and everyone refusing to associate with them. This sort of social opprobrium is very, very powerful and is very effective at modifying social behavior. Few people want to be completely alone and utterly unable to enjoy the fruits of an organized society, and the natural desire for social intercourse is a strong motivator towards socially acceptable behavior.

This does not mean that Libertarians will not engage in collective effort or even collective action against a particularly anti-social and harmful individual or group. Such collective action is fully authorized, but participation is always voluntary and not compulsory.

I hope this helps you understand the true principles and practices of Libertarianism rather than the false image that socialist detractors toss out as strawmen at every opportunity. I'll be happy to fill in the gaps for you, just ask.
Thanks, Seth! I'll be mulling this over as I work overtime for the man...
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:39 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
In this case he actually provided an interesting counterexample.
Privately owned roads would be able to forbid certain parties from traveling on them. Tolls would be all the traffic could bear. You would have to spend part of your vacation budget on an extra travel expense.

And in the end, the road was built with public money.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
Nothing faith-based about it. It's pure free market economics. And what problems are you referring to, pray tell? Care to get specific so I can demonstrate the superiority of Libertarianism, or do you just want to carp?
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:45 pm

Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
Nothing faith-based about it. It's pure free market economics. And what problems are you referring to, pray tell? Care to get specific so I can demonstrate the superiority of Libertarianism, or do you just want to carp?
No need, just scroll up.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:50 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Gawdzilla Sama wrote:This is why Libertarians don't get my respect. You simply blow-off any problems with your faith-based program.
In this case he actually provided an interesting counterexample.
Privately owned roads would be able to forbid certain parties from traveling on them. Tolls would be all the traffic could bear. You would have to spend part of your vacation budget on an extra travel expense.
You have to spend part of your vacation budget paying for the interstate system already. The problem is that you are currently paying for the WHOLE interstate system even if you only use it once a year to go to Yellowstone. Under Libertarian management, everyone would pay for what they use, and the costs of the tolls would be controlled by the free market and competition for transportation services. And why should you not pay the market rate for your transportation needs? Do you think you're entitled to use other people's roads without paying for them?
And in the end, the road was built with public money.
The difference is, and it's a huge difference, that it's paid for VOLUNTARILY by those who use/value such a highway system, either for personal reasons, like me, or for economic reasons like business that needs to transport goods efficiently.

Under a Libertarian system, there would probably be separate highways explicitly for commercial use such as trucking, which would relieve the congestion and hazard of having big trucks mixing with small vehicles.

Now why do you think someone who doesn't use the highways ought to be forced to pay for them? And lest you use the "they benefit from having trucks deliver goods to them so they must pay," keep in mind that they would pay for that use quite directly as a part of the cost of the goods they buy, which would include their "fair share" of the costs of transportation on private roads, just like we currently pay that cost for things like rail and aircraft delivery using private vehicles.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:51 pm

Okay, back on ignore.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Svartalf » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:55 pm

So I didn't miss anything, uh?
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Gawdzilla Sama wrote:Okay, back on ignore.
That's right, close that narrow crack of a mind right back up and ignore both reason and reality. As I said, I've never yet found an advocate of socialism intelligent enough or honest enough to actually debate the merits and demerits of the system, they universally run away or hurl poo as a substitute for rational argument. Welcome to that club.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:58 pm

Svartalf wrote:So I didn't miss anything, uh?
Nothing you'd be likely to understand anyway. Now, head back in your ass please.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:41 pm

I have not read this thread in full but my understanding is that libertarianism invokes free market economics and allows its advocates to pay for services they want. Is it basically a reworking of the American Dream where you get your reward if you work hard and long for it? But does it have any social responsibility to those who genuinely cannot get by? Or is it just everyone for themselves? And if it is, would this not create a segregated society between those who have and those who have not? Does this not already exist with capitalism anyway? So why bother changing the system if the overall effects are the same? I can see how libertarianism would benefit those in favour of it, but does it have any far reaching consequences for society as a whole? And what are its weaknesses? No system is perfect and libertarianism is no different.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Wandering Through » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:45 am

I'm glad this thread was resurrected. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it, and have bookmarked it for future reference.
surreptitious57 wrote:I have not read this thread in full but my understanding is that libertarianism invokes free market economics and allows its advocates to pay for services they want. Is it basically a reworking of the American Dream where you get your reward if you work hard and long for it? But does it have any social responsibility to those who genuinely cannot get by? Or is it just everyone for themselves? And if it is, would this not create a segregated society between those who have and those who have not? Does this not already exist with capitalism anyway? So why bother changing the system if the overall effects are the same? I can see how libertarianism would benefit those in favour of it, but does it have any far reaching consequences for society as a whole? And what are its weaknesses? No system is perfect and libertarianism is no different.
Surreptitious, several of your concerns have been directly addressed in this thread, I thought it was well worth my time to read it through in full. I am glad that the pro-libertarian arguments I've seen so far appear to be minarchist in nature, as this "flavor" seems to be the easiest for me to get my mind around. The majority of the very thin rebuttals in this thread seem better directed at the full blown anarchist "absolutely no government is acceptable" brand of libertarianism which as I understand it rejects any concept of a social contract. Maybe I'm wrong. I look forward to seeing others opinions. :tup:


As far as your questions regarding the weaknesses of libertarianism, I'm afraid that hasn't been very adequately covered here. A couple of people who clearly disdain the philosophy committed a few snide, half-hearted drive-bys, but offered nothing of any substance, even when specifically (and repeatedly) challenged to do so. Sadly, they were people whose posts and reasoning I've enjoyed in other threads. I was rather let down, not that they would have differing opinions, but that they would make such churlish, dismissive posts without offering a little bit of reasoned argument to back up their dismissals. Perhaps the counter-arguments are so painfully obvious as to not need voicing, and I am simply too thick to understand. :dunno:

I have an idea, I've been rather impressed by the reasoned arguments of the clearly pro-libertarian (or Jeffersonian) posters in this thread, so I would ask them:

Seth, Drewish, CES, Warren, et al.(no offense intended if I missed a name) since we apparently cannot look to those who disagree with you for any sort of rebuttal beyond ad-hom and non-sequitur drive-bys, what do you consider libertarianism's weaknesses, or the weakest arguments for it? Or the best arguments you've seen against it? Based on the content of the thread thus far, I think I stand a better chance of getting an objective and reasoned argument against libertarianism from one of its proponents than any of its opponents who have shown up so far.


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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Drewish » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:02 am

You know who else uses straw man arguments and mockery to bash libertarians? PZ Myers

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