America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Coito ergo sum]

So the extreme christian right in the US don't kill abortion doctors and some women who seek abortions? Does Fox News not cover these stories?

Are you truly this unable to focus? The assertion had nothing to do with "abortion doctors." The question was "which side would most likely kill us all if we were to have a Ratz meeting in their country. Clearly, the life expectancy of a Ratz meet would be far shorter in Ramallah than in Tel Aviv, and certainly shorter than in New York or LA or Chicago or even Mobile, or Tampa, or Jefferson City in the US.

Sure, there is crime in America. But to suggest that because there have been murders of doctors on an extremely rare occasion somehow means that a Ratz meeting in the US is likely to be killed by the Christian right is just fucking balls out, unabashedly stupid.

And, I'm going to tell you to fuck right off with your ridiculous, condescending, smug, fucking bullshit references, which are constant, about "Fox News" and the implications that those of us disagreeing with you get are news from there. Take that shit and shove it.

[Coito ergo sum]

The blockade was illegal.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is a clear violation of international humanitarian law, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10306193

A blockade is only legal in times of war. Israel was/is not at war with Gaza, for a number of obvious reasons which you alone apparently don't know

Me and Alan Dershowitz. Did you read his analysis, or just skip that part. With all due respect to the "ICRC" - they're not lawyers, they're a humanitarian organization. The blockade wasn't illegal.

[pErvinalia]

The blockade was illegal.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is a clear violation of international humanitarian law, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10306193

A blockade is only legal in times of war. Israel was/is not at war with Gaza, for a number of obvious reasons which you alone apparently don't know

Me and Alan Dershowitz. Did you read his analysis, or just skip that part. With all due respect to the "ICRC" - they're not lawyers, they're a humanitarian organization. The blockade wasn't illegal.

I notice how you skipped all the other evidence and argumentation I provided in that post. Somehow I just knew you would focus on the Red Cross. If nothing else, you are predictable (in fact that's pretty much all you are). And as i predicted, evidence and reasonable argumentation have no effect on your blinkered view of the Israel/Palestinian situation. It's pointless debating with someone like you. I'm off to bed, and I hope i the meantime Gawd takes up the fight, as I really don't see the point in continuing in the face of such ignorance.

[Seth]

Israeli civilians are legitimate targets since it is they that are doing the ethnic cleansing. And also, Israeli citizens are the IDF. You can't claim to be a "civilian" all the while being part of the the Jewish murder weapon.

And this endlessly deep well of hate exists on both sides, leaving a toxic, festering sore that seems incapable of healing. The murderous nightmare will continue...

It's entirely Israel's fault. Way back in 2002/2003, Saudi Arabia and the other Arab nations all offered Israel peace treaties if it ceased ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and recognize the 1967 borders that every other nation in the world supports. Well, being Israel and a nation full of Jewish supremacists with the backing of the Americans, it was rejected. The entirety of the problem today is Israel's refusal to stop stealing land and ethnically cleansing Arabs from the area. Hamas is right to attack Israel, we see just how useless Fatah is in protecting the West Bank & Palestinians from the onslaught of Jewish "settlers" bent on carrying out pogroms against all Arabs.

Probably has something to do with the fact that in spite of Israel's victory in the 1967 war, by which victory they legally gained the right to all of the Sinai and Gaza and every other inch of land they took AFTER they were attacked BY THE ARABS, and despite agreeing to certain concessions in Gaza and the West Bank, the Arabs have continuously used those areas to launch unceasing terrorist attacks on Israel.

Israel has every right to eject Arabs from Israel because Arabs continue to attack them from those bases of terrorist activity.

[Warren Dew]

The Palestinian organization the JMCC did a study finding that 66% of Palestinians support suicide bombing and the murder of civilians in Israel, including women and children. And, at least 51% of Palestinians want Israel eliminated and replaced with a Palestinian state encompassing all of what they consider to be "historic Palestaine." That's from a Palestinian source, which would not be expected to be biased toward Israel or even neutral/unbiased in any way. http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000099.html

Indeed, such a source should be considered biased against Israel, so they most likely set things up to exaggerate the proportion supporting suicide bombing and elimination of Israel. Since even so, they only got a 51% majority on the latter question, mostly likely the majority - and certainly half - of palestinians are okay with the existence of Israel.

Nor are the palestinians uniformly distributed. The average palestinian in Gaza probably isn't too happy about Israel. The average palestinian in the west bank would be more than happy if Israel annexed the territory and gave the residents citizenship. It's Israel that objects to that solution, not the palestinians.

Me and Alan Dershowitz.

Dershowitz is the guy who got OJ off the hook. He's great at twisting the law to make it sound like it supports his preferred position; he's a terrible source for an objective analysis.

[pErvinalia]

The Palestinian organization the JMCC did a study finding that 66% of Palestinians support suicide bombing and the murder of civilians in Israel, including women and children. And, at least 51% of Palestinians want Israel eliminated and replaced with a Palestinian state encompassing all of what they consider to be "historic Palestaine." That's from a Palestinian source, which would not be expected to be biased toward Israel or even neutral/unbiased in any way. http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000099.html

Indeed, such a source should be considered biased against Israel, so they most likely set things up to exaggerate the proportion supporting suicide bombing and elimination of Israel.

That was my thinking as well.

Since even so, they only got a 51% majority on the latter question, mostly likely the majority - and certainly half - of palestinians are okay with the existence of Israel.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this survey was done in 2002, and only 3 months earlier the majority didn't support the removal of the Jewish state. And in those 3 months Israel hammered the Palestinians, strongly suggesting that the Palestinians views are heavily influenced by the punitive and collective actions Israel takes against them. I don't find it hard to understand why the strongly oppressed hate their oppressors. I would feel the same way if I was being oppressed, and I imagine Coito would too.

Me and Alan Dershowitz.

Dershowitz is the guy who got OJ off the hook. He's great at twisting the law to make it sound like it supports his preferred position; he's a terrible source for an objective analysis.

[/quote]

Yeah, just looking at Dershowitz on wiki, he's been saying whackier and whackier things in later years. A couple of his suggestions are frighteningly Nazi like.

[sandinista]

The Palestinian organization the JMCC did a study finding that 66% of Palestinians support suicide bombing and the murder of civilians in Israel, including women and children. And, at least 51% of Palestinians want Israel eliminated and replaced with a Palestinian state encompassing all of what they consider to be "historic Palestaine." That's from a Palestinian source, which would not be expected to be biased toward Israel or even neutral/unbiased in any way. http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000099.html

Indeed, such a source should be considered biased against Israel, so they most likely set things up to exaggerate the proportion supporting suicide bombing and elimination of Israel.

That was my thinking as well.

Since even so, they only got a 51% majority on the latter question, mostly likely the majority - and certainly half - of palestinians are okay with the existence of Israel.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this survey was done in 2002, and only 3 months earlier the majority didn't support the removal of the Jewish state. And in those 3 months Israel hammered the Palestinians, strongly suggesting that the Palestinians views are heavily influenced by the punitive and collective actions Israel takes against them. I don't find it hard to understand why the strongly oppressed hate their oppressors. I would feel the same way if I was being oppressed, and I imagine Coito would too.

Me and Alan Dershowitz.

Dershowitz is the guy who got OJ off the hook. He's great at twisting the law to make it sound like it supports his preferred position; he's a terrible source for an objective analysis.

Yeah, just looking at Dershowitz on wiki, he's been saying whackier and whackier things in later years. A couple of his suggestions are frighteningly Nazi like. [/quote]

Sounds like a guy CES would like to have on his "side"!

As for Israel and Palestine, most of the talk is about what is happening, or what has happened. Would would be going on if nothing happened. By nothing, I mean, no suicide attacks, no missile strikes, no physical violence by either side. What would be the situation? Israel would continue slowly taking away Palestinian land and building settlements and before you would even realize it Israel would swallow up the west bank and gaza. That is the initial problem, Israel is expansionist and the Palestinians are getting run off their land.

[JimC]

sandinista wrote:

Would would be going on if nothing happened. By nothing, I mean, no suicide attacks, no missile strikes, no physical violence by either side. What would be the situation? Israel would continue slowly taking away Palestinian land and building settlements and before you would even realize it Israel would swallow up the west bank and gaza. That is the initial problem, Israel is expansionist and the Palestinians are getting run off their land.

I agree that they are, via the settlement program, slowly takng away land that has been used by the palestinians for a long time. Legal quibbles about actual ownership, or the history of the ottoman empire does not change the fact that the settlement program is annexation by stealth, and it seems to be run by strongly fundamentalist Jews who want all of ancient Israel to be a purely Jewish state, with palestinians either expelled or second class citizens.

However, I doubt very much that rocket attacks or any terrorist attacks by Hamas or others will affect this program at all. The long term solution will come from international pressure on Israel to stop the settlement program; however, any further terrorist attacks plays into the hand of the Israelis, and greatly reduce international pressure against them.

[Warren Dew]

However, I doubt very much that rocket attacks or any terrorist attacks by Hamas or others will affect this program at all. The long term solution will come from international pressure on Israel to stop the settlement program; however, any further terrorist attacks plays into the hand of the Israelis, and greatly reduce international pressure against them.

International pressure hasn't done the palestinians much good so far. Meanwhile, terrorism got the Israelis to destroy their settlements in the Gaza and withdraw from it completely.

I suspect the palestinians would be more than happy to give up terrorism if they saw anything else actually working.

[JimC]

However, I doubt very much that rocket attacks or any terrorist attacks by Hamas or others will affect this program at all. The long term solution will come from international pressure on Israel to stop the settlement program; however, any further terrorist attacks plays into the hand of the Israelis, and greatly reduce international pressure against them.

International pressure hasn't done the palestinians much good so far. Meanwhile, terrorism got the Israelis to destroy their settlements in the Gaza and withdraw from it completely.

I suspect the palestinians would be more than happy to give up terrorism if they saw anything else actually working.

Gaza was simply a bridge too far, and the Israelis recognised realpolitik: Gaza is not considered religious heartland...

The other point is a little like the chicken and the egg problem; I am contending that the continuation of terrorism is what prevents Israel from being regarded as an international pariah, and therefore it helps to maintain the status quo...

Even if I am wrong in that respect, I cannot see armed struggle by the palestinians of having any realistic effect on Israel's actions, particularly since they have the totally romantic and unrealistic view that they can abolish Israel as a state...

[Warren Dew]

[The other point is a little like the chicken and the egg problem; I am contending that the continuation of terrorism is what prevents Israel from being regarded as an international pariah, and therefore it helps to maintain the status quo...

Israel used to be regarded as an international pariah. The only thing saving it from that status right now is the unpopularity of muslim minorities throughout Europe.

Even if I am wrong in that respect, I cannot see armed struggle by the palestinians of having any realistic effect on Israel's actions, particularly since they have the totally romantic and unrealistic view that they can abolish Israel as a state...

It won't be so unrealistic once Iran gets nukes. Shiite palestinian groups like Hezbollah will be quite a threat at that point - not that they aren't already.

[Coito ergo sum]

The Palestinian organization the JMCC did a study finding that 66% of Palestinians support suicide bombing and the murder of civilians in Israel, including women and children. And, at least 51% of Palestinians want Israel eliminated and replaced with a Palestinian state encompassing all of what they consider to be "historic Palestaine." That's from a Palestinian source, which would not be expected to be biased toward Israel or even neutral/unbiased in any way. http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000099.html

Indeed, such a source should be considered biased against Israel, so they most likely set things up to exaggerate the proportion supporting suicide bombing and elimination of Israel.

That was my thinking as well.

LOL - so - let's get this straight - there is no poll that can be considered unbiased enough to be even close to the number? Either it's pro-Israel and inflates the numbers to make it look like Israel is under a dire threat - or, it's anti-Israel but still inflates the numbers to make it look like lots of people are against Israel?

Frankly - I'm surprised anyone is taking issue with this. I thought it was pretty much obvious that Muslims in the Middle East were overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-Jew.

Are there statistics showing that the vast majority of Palestinians or Arab Muslims in general are good with the existence of Israel as a Jewish state? And, totally against suicide bombing of Jewish and American civilians?

[Coito ergo sum]

However, I doubt very much that rocket attacks or any terrorist attacks by Hamas or others will affect this program at all. The long term solution will come from international pressure on Israel to stop the settlement program; however, any further terrorist attacks plays into the hand of the Israelis, and greatly reduce international pressure against them.

International pressure hasn't done the palestinians much good so far. Meanwhile, terrorism got the Israelis to destroy their settlements in the Gaza and withdraw from it completely.

I suspect the palestinians would be more than happy to give up terrorism if they saw anything else actually working.

What would do the Palestinians good would be to publicly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and accept post 1967 borders as the borders of Palestine and ask the UN for statehood recognition. If they were to say "we just want a state side-by-side with Israel" and they take a reasonable apportionment, then they can move on with life and get a real country together. Right now, they aren't a nation - they are stateless territories.

[Coito ergo sum]

You're shitting me, right? Don't you get a news service at the rock you live under?

Something is seriously wrong with you.

You live in dreamland. What's worse than an ignoramus is an ignoramus who thinks he's educated and informed. Whatever crack they feed you as babies where you come from is causing folks like you to grow up with half a brain.

[Coito ergo sum]

The blockade was illegal.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is a clear violation of international humanitarian law, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10306193

A blockade is only legal in times of war. Israel was/is not at war with Gaza, for a number of obvious reasons which you alone apparently don't know

Me and Alan Dershowitz. Did you read his analysis, or just skip that part. With all due respect to the "ICRC" - they're not lawyers, they're a humanitarian organization. The blockade wasn't illegal.

I notice how you skipped all the other evidence and argumentation I provided in that post. Somehow I just knew you would focus on the Red Cross. If nothing else, you are predictable (in fact that's pretty much all you are). And as i predicted, evidence and reasonable argumentation have no effect on your blinkered view of the Israel/Palestinian situation. It's pointless debating with someone like you. I'm off to bed, and I hope i the meantime Gawd takes up the fight, as I really don't see the point in continuing in the face of such ignorance.

I'm done with your fucking bullshit. You and your ilk ALWAYS have to make it a personal sniping challenge.