Obese Man to Sue NHS for letting him get fat.

[mistermack]

I disagree. The problem is EXACTLY the same for everybody. It's just that it's bigger for some than others.
If you can't control your weight, that is it. That is the problem. What is the difference, other than scale? I notice you don't name these other mysterious differences that you seem to refer to.
No, it's just an inablility to control your eating. Same problem for all. Some people have a mild case, some have an extremely severe case.
How does it suddenly switch to being addictive behaviour, once you go over a certain level of overweight?
Oviously if you really don't care about being overweight, then you can claim to be not in the slightest addicted to over-eating.
But the vast majority would prefer to be trim, and if you've tried and not succeeded, you are at least slightly addicted.
If you claim that the remedy is SIMPLE, and yet people want to do it, but can't, that's addiction, however slight.
.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's not exactly the same for everybody - plainly and simply - if one person eats because of a depressive disorder, and another eats because of an anxiety disorder, and a third eats too much simply because they don't know that they're eating too much - all three of which exist in the world - then the reasons people eat are different and the problem is not exactly the same for everybody.

What do you mean I don't "name these other mysterious differences"" I did name the differences - people have different reasons for eating too much - one might have an adjustment disorder with depressed moods -- one might have clinical depression -- another might have an obsessive disorder - another might have a compulsion -- one might have post traumatic stress disorder with an associated eating disorder.

Yes, of course "eating too much" is common to them all. What causes people to eat too much can vary widely.

Yes - I agree that the basic problem is the "inability to control eating" or "eating too much."

I did not say that it suddenly switch to an addictive behavior once a person goes over a certain weight. You've misunderstood me, so let me try to explain again. A behavioral addiction is a clinical psychiatric disorder. Not all people who are overweight suffer from that disorder, or any disorder. Some overweight people suffer from other disorders besides a behavioral addiction - some can suffer from depression - others anxiety - others obssessive/compulsive disorders - what have you - there are many psychiatric conditions.

What I meant be suggesting there is a difference between someone who gains 230 pouinds and someone who gains a small amount of weight is that those who gain fantastic amounts of weight are more likely to be suffering from serious psychological conditions. People who gain 20 or 30 pounds can do so quite easily without any such condition, and can simply eat a little bit too much and over time get overweight (without being "obese").

Yours appears to be a colloquial use of the word "addiction", which I am hesitant to use, because addiction has a medical meaning. It is a clinical diagnosis. Not all people who are overweight suffer from an addiction. I haven't seen any published medical or psychiatric journal article suggesting that 65% of the American population and 55% of the British populations are suffering from clinical addiction disorders. Have you?

[Warren Dew]

Actually, no - I am posting in utter amazement at the amount of controversy the statement -- if you want to lose weight you have to eat less than goes out - makes.

At least you're saying "goes out" than "what you burn" now. That's an improvement.

It's still useless diet advice, though. It's like telling someone who is stalling a rental car "use the clutch, use the clutch" when he only knows how to drive an automatic. The correct answer is to tell him, "switch to a rental car with an automatic transmission."

In this case, people are saying, "switch to a diet that you can actually lose weight on" is the useful advice.

[AnInconvenientScotsman]

I still think the best advice would be to tell the fucker to actually make a point of involving his GP in any dietary or other decisions, which if he had he probably wouldn't be fat. Doctors can't help you if you don't seek out help. If someone OD's on heroin it's not the local A&E's fault. What a cunt.

[mistermack]

I'm afraid you're putting far too much faith in the psychiatric profession, with all these references to "clinical this" and "clinical that" or "clinical psychiatric disorders". You seem to be putting psychiatry on a par with medicine.
It's anything but. There may be some well defined "disorders" that exactly match pre-defined parameters, but most people don't match pre-defined disorders. It's really a mish-mash of human behaviour, which people have attempted to classify into boxes. Not very successfully.

People don't over-eat because of "clinical depression". Their depression problem can make them vulnerable to falling into a pattern of addictive behaviour. That can be directed at food, alcohol, drugs, gambling, or many other patterns of behaviour.

If people can't stop drinking alcohol, even though they would like to, most people would be happy to call that addictive behaviour. Same goes for gambling, or drugs or sex. I see no difference from overeating. I don't give a toss if it's not tagged "clinical" in the trade.

As far as published psychiatric journals go, I wouldn't wipe my ass with one. There is no profession that over-claims more than psychiatry, except maybe chinese medicine. Or homeopathy.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm afraid you're putting far too much faith in the psychiatric profession, with all these references to "clinical this" and "clinical that" or "clinical psychiatric disorders". You seem to be putting psychiatry on a par with medicine.

I would put more "faith" in the psychiatric profession than your layman's opinion that 65% of the US and 55% of the British populations are suffering from "addictions." With all due respect to your off-the-cuff diagnosis, you'll need some evidence.

It's anything but. There may be some well defined "disorders" that exactly match pre-defined parameters, but most people don't match pre-defined disorders. It's really a mish-mash of human behaviour, which people have attempted to classify into boxes. Not very successfully.

People don't over-eat because of "clinical depression". Their depression problem can make them vulnerable to falling into a pattern of addictive behaviour. That can be directed at food, alcohol, drugs, gambling, or many other patterns of behaviour.

Many in the psychiatric profession say you aren't right about that, and that clinical depression can, in fact, cause a person to overeat. And, yes, depression can cause people to do drugs, drink or gamble as means of escape or to self-treat their depression.

I

If people can't stop drinking alcohol, even though they would like to, most people would be happy to call that addictive behaviour. Same goes for gambling, or drugs or sex. I see no difference from overeating. I don't give a toss if it's not tagged "clinical" in the trade.

The big difference is that people don't need to drink alcohol, take drugs or gamble to live. Everyone eats. We're not addicted to food because we eat, and we're not necessarily addicted because we eat too much. Not everyone who is overweight even knows or thinks they are overweight. People can often have an extra 10, 20, or 30 pounds, and think they are of an appropriate weight.

However - look at what we're really differing about - I don't deny that behavioral addictions exist, and that people can have behavioral addictions to food. O.k. - so I'm not denying that your relative who was 230 pounds overweight might well have had that addiction. Got it? My point is that not everyone who is overweight is "addicted" to food. You think "everyone" is addicted to food. Do you have any evidence for your assertion, or is it just your own opinion?

I

As far as published psychiatric journals go, I wouldn't wipe my ass with one. There is no profession that over-claims more than psychiatry, except maybe chinese medicine. Or homeopathy.

Gotcha. So, we should wipe our asses with peer reviewed journals and scientific articles on the topic, and just believe you. Right.

[mistermack]

I don't really care much what you believe.
You're arguing over the use of a word. ( so am I ).
As I pointed out earlier, you seem to think that it's only addiction if it's a major problem.
I think it's addiction as soon as you lose the slightest bit of control. I say you can be very slightly addicted, and that just grows, eventually into a major problem.
You disagree, fair enough. You call it what you like.
I'll call it addiction.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't really care much what you believe.
You're arguing over the use of a word. ( so am I ).
As I pointed out earlier, you seem to think that it's only addiction if it's a major problem.
I think it's addiction as soon as you lose the slightest bit of control. I say you can be very slightly addicted, and that just grows, eventually into a major problem.
You disagree, fair enough. You call it what you like.
I'll call it addiction.

Then every human being is "addicted" to food and water. That's what doesn't make sense about your use of the word. I'm not overweight, but hunger causes me to lose control of my ability to not eat.

People have sex drives, which influence their ability to refrain from sex. Is every single human addicted to sex?

Here - this is what I can agree with:

Addictive behavior is any activity, substance, object, or behavior that has become the major focus of a person's life to the exclusion of other activities, or that has begun to harm the individual or others physically, mentally, or socially.

A person can become addicted, dependent, or compulsively obsessed with anything. Some researchers imply that there are similarities between physical addiction to various chemicals, such as alcohol and heroin, and psychological dependence to activities such as compulsive gambling, sex, work, running, shopping, or eating disorders.

Many, but not all, overweight people are engaged in "addictive behavior." It's definitely not all because many, many overweight people do not hold food as "the major focus" in their lives, to the exclusion of other activities, and many overweight people are not harmed physically, mentally or socially by being overweight.

If you disagree with that, then fine. There's no reason for you to get so pissy about it, though.

[mistermack]

I'm not pissy. I'm just saying I don't expect to convert you, of all people, to my point of view. You were a little bit sarky, intimating that I expect everyone to ignore the psychiatric profession and believe me.
I don't. I'm giving my opinion. That's allowed.

I know we have to eat. But if you eat even a little more than you would have liked, I think you are a tiny bit addicted. That's my personal opinion. I don't expect you to agree. That's not me being pissy. I'm not that subtle, and I'm only pissy if I'm pissed at. (I hope)

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not pissy. I'm just saying I don't expect to convert you, of all people, to my point of view. You were a little bit sarky, intimating that I expect everyone to ignore the psychiatric profession and believe me.
I don't. I'm giving my opinion. That's allowed.

I know we have to eat. But if you eat even a little more than you would have liked, I think you are a tiny bit addicted. That's my personal opinion. I don't expect you to agree. That's not me being pissy. I'm not that subtle, and I'm only pissy if I'm pissed at. (I hope)

Yes, but, most overweight people don't necessarily eat "a little more than they would have liked." Many think they eat just normal amounts of food, and eat exactly what they would like. It just happens to be too much. But alright - fair enough. We agree on almost everything, actually - which is why I wasn't sure why we were getting into an argument. The only thing we differ on, as I see it, is that you think all overweight people are addicted, and I only think some overweight people are addicted - and that might be because of a difference in definitions. So, looks like we have that about wrapped up.

[Cunt]

I think it's addiction as soon as you lose the slightest bit of control. I say you can be very slightly addicted, and that just grows, eventually into a major problem.

Addiction doesn't 'just grow', though. This is another place where you show your ignorance to anyone who cares to look.
Many who are in you description 'very slightly' addicted will not grow their problem. Some who overindulge slightly will correct their own behaviour.
You can call it 'addiction', but you would be joining religious groups (like AA) in your use of the word. The medical professionals have distanced themselves from that word (and I think for good reason).

[maiforpeace]

I think it's addiction as soon as you lose the slightest bit of control. I say you can be very slightly addicted, and that just grows, eventually into a major problem.

Addiction doesn't 'just grow', though. This is another place where you show your ignorance to anyone who cares to look.
Many who are in you description 'very slightly' addicted will not grow their problem. Some who overindulge slightly will correct their own behaviour.
You can call it 'addiction', but you would be joining religious groups (like AA) in your use of the word. The medical professionals have distanced themselves from that word (and I think for good reason).

Well I'm looking and he doesn't look ignorant to me. You are all arguing over the use of a word, and that looks like something else, and I wouldn't characterize it as ignorance.

It's too bad the discussions in this section of the forum have to get so mean-spirited (and I'm not just referring to you Cunt) It has driven away lots of people because of it. When I have asked some of the people who participate here, that have an opinion, why they don't join in, they say "because I'm afraid of looking stupid or ignorant". What a shame.

[mistermack]

I think it's addiction as soon as you lose the slightest bit of control. I say you can be very slightly addicted, and that just grows, eventually into a major problem.

Addiction doesn't 'just grow', though. This is another place where you show your ignorance to anyone who cares to look.
Many who are in you description 'very slightly' addicted will not grow their problem. Some who overindulge slightly will correct their own behaviour.
You can call it 'addiction', but you would be joining religious groups (like AA) in your use of the word. The medical professionals have distanced themselves from that word (and I think for good reason).

This is where you show incredible ignorance of what is right in front of your eyes.
I did not say that a slight addiction ALWAYS grows into a major one.
If you want to take issue with stuff I didn't actually say, the world is your bloater.

[mistermack]

Yes, but, most overweight people don't necessarily eat "a little more than they would have liked." Many think they eat just normal amounts of food, and eat exactly what they would like. It just happens to be too much. But alright - fair enough. We agree on almost everything, actually - which is why I wasn't sure why we were getting into an argument. The only thing we differ on, as I see it, is that you think all overweight people are addicted, and I only think some overweight people are addicted - and that might be because of a difference in definitions. So, looks like we have that about wrapped up.

Fair enough. I'm not saying all overweight people are addicted. If they really don't care, I wouldn't say that.
I would only say it about people who want to lose weight, but can't.
And many of them would only be a TINY BIT addicted, according to my definition.
Cheers.

[JimC]

Yes, but, most overweight people don't necessarily eat "a little more than they would have liked." Many think they eat just normal amounts of food, and eat exactly what they would like. It just happens to be too much. But alright - fair enough. We agree on almost everything, actually - which is why I wasn't sure why we were getting into an argument. The only thing we differ on, as I see it, is that you think all overweight people are addicted, and I only think some overweight people are addicted - and that might be because of a difference in definitions. So, looks like we have that about wrapped up.

Fair enough. I'm not saying all overweight people are addicted. If they really don't care, I wouldn't say that.
I would only say it about people who want to lose weight, but can't.
And many of them would only be a TINY BIT addicted, according to my definition.
Cheers.

As you know, I'm generally in agreement with you that people that are obese or seriously overweight will often need help to get started in a diet because their over-eating has become addictive, and that just them knowing the facts, and being given a sensible diet will not be enough, even if they want to lose weight. However, Cunt may have a point that the serious problems are when the addiction is such that the weight gains just keep going. Someone who is overweight by 10 or 15 kg, but is not putting on more weight, would probably not need the same help in terms of breaking an addiction than those who just keep getting fatter and fatter... You would probably call them still "a bit addicted", but in pragmatic terms, will-power alone will allow most of them to lose weight, in the right circumstances. Much harder for the out-of-control, fully addicted ones, without help...