Meanwhile, back in Kiev....

[JimC]

It's been said by Western powers how terrible it would be for a region within a country to separate itself from that country without consent from the country itself.

And yet, with a fanfare and support from the West, that is exactly what Kosovo did, when it left Serbia...

[Warren Dew]

It's been said by Western powers how terrible it would be for a region within a country to separate itself from that country without consent from the country itself.

And yet, with a fanfare and support from the West, that is exactly what Kosovo did, when it left Serbia...

Yeah, the Kosovo intervention was pretty poorly thought out.

[JimC]

It's been said by Western powers how terrible it would be for a region within a country to separate itself from that country without consent from the country itself.

And yet, with a fanfare and support from the West, that is exactly what Kosovo did, when it left Serbia...

Yeah, the Kosovo intervention was pretty poorly thought out.

Whether the intervention was poorly executed or not, the idea that Kosovo deserved independence, and that it didn't matter a damn what the rest of Serbia thought, was held by the majority of Western powers...

That time, Russia had to suck it up...

Maybe not this time...

Having said that, various reports I have read are suggesting that the people of Crimea are fairly evenly split between staying with the Ukraine, and merging with Russia. The pro-Russians are talking the loudest, and seem to have the guns... Given that, it will get very messy, I suspect...

[Jason]

Because we should trust RT when it comes to Russian propaganda... uh, I mean news.

There are plenty of other sources to read about it. Google it.

[klr]

It's been said by Western powers how terrible it would be for a region within a country to separate itself from that country without consent from the country itself.

And yet, with a fanfare and support from the West, that is exactly what Kosovo did, when it left Serbia...

Kosovo declared itself to be independent, not that it was (say) joining Albania - let alone doing so under the sway of Albania. Oddly enough, that distinction does seem to be very important in international law. Another key difference is the Crimeans are not (contrary to some Russian bluster) not suffering any serious privations, such as the Kosovars did at the hands of the Serbs. That too seems to matter quite a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... dependence

If you' want cases comparable with Kosovo, then I'd say the likes of East Timor or South Sudan are good candidates.

If you want to talk hypocrisy, try Russia's "recognition" of the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states, using Kosovo as a precedent - despite the fact that Russia is vehemently opposed to an independent Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... dependence

And need I even mention Chechnya?

[klr]

...

Having said that, various reports I have read are suggesting that the people of Crimea are fairly evenly split between staying with the Ukraine, and merging with Russia. The pro-Russians are talking the loudest, and seem to have the guns... Given that, it will get very messy, I suspect...

Which means they get to count the votes:

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." - Stalin

Even if Stalin never said that - and some people on the internet seem to have a fixation with "proving" that he didn't - it seems like the very sort of thing that he would say. He definitely practised it whenever he had to.

Now there's news that those with the guns in Crimea are stopping international observers from entering:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26499328

How stupid is that? Given that any free and fair vote to join Russia would - regardless of its legality - likely produce a clear "Yes", surely it's in the best interests of "Pro-Russian" forces to let the observers in, and see that nothing is amiss?

[mistermack]

Now there's news that those with the guns in Crimea are stopping international observers from entering:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26499328

How stupid is that? Given that any free and fair vote to join Russia would - regardless of its legality - likely produce a clear "Yes", surely it's in the best interests of "Pro-Russian" forces to let the observers in, and see that nothing is amiss?

Except that those are not election observers.
The fact that the Kiev bandits ''insist'' that they should be let in virtually extinguished any chance of entry.

[klr]

Now there's news that those with the guns in Crimea are stopping international observers from entering:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26499328

How stupid is that? Given that any free and fair vote to join Russia would - regardless of its legality - likely produce a clear "Yes", surely it's in the best interests of "Pro-Russian" forces to let the observers in, and see that nothing is amiss?

Except that those are not election observers.
The fact that the Kiev bandits ''insist'' that they should be let in virtually extinguished any chance of entry.

Of course they're not election observers, Those would come later. But if these observers are not let in, then there's obviously no prospect of election observers being allowed, especially given how soon this referendum is to take place.

"Kiev bandits"? Hey, maybe the USA itself is illegal, given how the Colonies broke away from Britain back in the day. I prefer not to repeatedly parrot mindless buzz-words and worthless phrases.

Try and read something informative for change:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26481423

[mistermack]

International law is a joke.
Is there an international court? Or an international police force? Or an international jail or fines?

America has had the UN in it's pocket for years. That fact means that the UN isn't taken seriously.
But the situation is changing.

This is part of the demise of the US as the global superpower.

[Jason]

Not letting observers in is suspicious. The official contention is that they were invited by Kiev and not Crimea (Crimea does not recognize the government in Kiev as legitimate) and so are being stopped. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out with Crimea and Russia not recognizing Kiev and Kiev not recognizing Crimea (although I don't know what their grounds for claiming the Crimean government is illegitimate since nothing has changed in the Crimean parliament) and the referendum in only 8 days. Will Crimea join Russia giving the middle finger to western hypocrisy in a failed coup? I'd like to see that. The latest polls I saw had something like 70% of Crimeans in support of joining Russia.

[Seth]

International law is a joke.
Is there an international court?

Yes. It's in The Hague.

Or an international police force?

Yes, it's called INTERPOL.

Or an international jail or fines?

See the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

America has had the UN in it's pocket for years.

I wish.

That fact means that the UN isn't taken seriously.

The UN isn't taken seriously because it's an impotent, corrupt political charade that couldn't shoot its way out of a wet paper bag.

But the situation is changing.

This is part of the demise of the US as the global superpower.

[/quote]

Not really. It's a result of our stupidity in electing Obama, that much is certain.

[mistermack]

Not really. It's a result of our stupidity in electing Obama, that much is certain.

As compared to Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan?

You LIKE stupid.

[Seth]

Not really. It's a result of our stupidity in electing Obama, that much is certain.

As compared to Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan?

You LIKE stupid.

I was an Alan Keyes man myself.

[Audley Strange]

International law is a joke.
Is there an international court?

Yes.

Or an international police force?

Yes.

Or an international jail or fines?

After a fashion, yes.

America has had the UN in it's pocket for years. That fact means that the UN isn't taken seriously.
But the situation is changing.

This is part of the demise of the US as the global superpower.

Agreed.

[mistermack]

I was an Alan Keyes man myself.

Wot you, keen on a loony conspiracy theorist??

Who would 'a thought it?