The BNP may appear on BBC's Question Time

[Pappa]

I was impressed. The most significant bit for me was the repeated references to this YouTube clip of him outlining how he intends to feed the public a watered down version of his nationalism first followed by the real stuff later. It showed him for what he is. It was an interesting and worthwhile discussion and I think David Dimbleby in particular did an excellent job of exposing Griffin as a charlatan.

Greer was excellent too. She seemed to have a way of getting Griffin to shut up with the smallest of gestures. He probably thought she was a voodoo witch or something.

[Chauncey Gardner]

here's that youtube vido clip the panel was referring to (where Griffin outlines his pr strategy of talking about "identity" instead of "racial purity" etc.)

[BlackBart]

I was impressed. The most significant bit for me was the repeated references to this YouTube clip of him outlining how he intends to feed the public a watered down version of his nationalism first followed by the real stuff later. It showed him for what he is. It was an interesting and worthwhile discussion and I think David Dimbleby in particular did an excellent job of exposing Griffin as a charlatan.

Greer was excellent too. She seemed to have a way of getting Griffin to shut up with the smallest of gestures. He probably thought she was a voodoo witch or something.

And Peter Hain would have denied us the right to see Greer dismantle this odious toad. Shame on him!

[BlackBart]

Greer as magnificent!!
17000 years? A radio message was the damning proof of the holocaust? What a dick - you know you've got problems when you get pwned (See? I'm hip, I'm down with the kids) by Jack Straw.

the ice age stuff was quite funny...but what got me was the way he said the leader of the klu klux klan was actually a rather decent chap and they weren't really a violent organisation.

The clincher for me was when the other panellists admonished him for trying to deny he shared a stage with the KKK guy, sarcastically shouting "oh, he wasn't there?" and "oh, so you didn't see him?"...I could clearly hear Griffin (nervously smiling as he backtracked from his claim that he wasn't there) say "maybe he was wearing a hood". He even used his hands to form the shape of the triangular KKK hood on his head....and laughed. I couldn't fucking believe it. not only was he on national telly...but be was sitting right beside Bonnie Greer.

He came out with some other gems....but the KKK thing really caught me by surprise...I knew he was a few slices short of a pizza, but, I didn't realise he was that many slices short.

I was gobsmacked by how ineffectual he actually was. I was expecting a smooth operator who could adeptly disguise his racism with charismatic rhetoric. The maxim 'never meet your heroes' seems to work in reverse.

And did you notice Greer kept her back turned on him the whole time? Go girl!

[Chauncey Gardner]

I was gobsmacked by how ineffectual he actually was. I was expecting a smooth operator who could adeptly disguise his racism with charismatic rhetoric. The maxim 'never meet your heroes' seems to work in reverse.

And did you notice Greer kept her back turned on him the whole time? Go girl!

I agree. It was fascinating to see how intimidated by Greer he was....he would constantly glance at her when he was rambling on, as if in anticipation of an interruption from her corner...but she was completely unflappable, cool, calm and collected. She could just twiddle her thumb and Griffin would starts stuttering and bumbling his lines...

fascinating stuff.

[Pappa]

I was impressed. The most significant bit for me was the repeated references to this YouTube clip of him outlining how he intends to feed the public a watered down version of his nationalism first followed by the real stuff later. It showed him for what he is. It was an interesting and worthwhile discussion and I think David Dimbleby in particular did an excellent job of exposing Griffin as a charlatan.

Greer was excellent too. She seemed to have a way of getting Griffin to shut up with the smallest of gestures. He probably thought she was a voodoo witch or something.

And Peter Hain would have denied us the right to see Greer dismantle this odious toad. Shame on him!

He was a cunt even before that.

[BlackBart]

He was a cunt even before that.

Succinct and to the point.

[Pappa]

He was a cunt even before that.

Succinct and to the point.

I would have elaborated, but I can't remember exactly why I think he's a cunt.

[Animavore]

Why isn't this on YouTube yet?

[klr]

Why isn't this on YouTube yet?

Check here:

http://forum.richarddawkins.net/viewtop ... 3#p2385713

[Animavore]

BBC lays the boot in

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8321683.stm

[Feck]

All the protests ,"Mobs" and (surprisingly even Mr Hain) just increased the numbers of people exposed to the debate .Thats a lot more people who maybe would have been fooled by the wedge like misinformation the BNP has been trying to foist on the "man in the street" .The message of Fascism is insidious and its core
values deny both peaceful protest and informed debate . Yesterday WIN WIN .

[BlackBart]

He was a cunt even before that.

Succinct and to the point.

I would have elaborated, but I can't remember exactly why I think he's a cunt.

He's going out of his way to make it blatantly obvious!

From the beeb...

Minister Peter Hain said the BBC had legitimised the BNP's "racist poison".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8321683.stm

I feel an FLA coming on... STFU!!!!!

[devogue]

I'm afraid I disagree entirely with the consensus here about the programme and how it will work negatively for the BNP.

The programme played completely in to Griffin's hands, and I will try to explain why - sometimes, and I can't stress this enough, playing devil's advocate:

1) When the first question was asked one of the panelists (Jack Straw, I think) answered and the audience began to whoop and holler in agreement - it was completely unlike anything I have heard on Question Time before. Such a response, before Griffin had even opened his mouth, immediately set the "bearpit" tone of the evening that many commentators in the press had warned against because it would make Griffin out as the underdog.

2) The panel and audience went crazy in defence of Winston Churchill but, like the BNP's ethos, they presented a tired, one-dimensional caricature of a great man with no faults. Here are a couple of quotes by Churchill:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. (1899)

and

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks constitutes a national and race danger which is impossible to exaggerate. I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed before another year has passed. (1910)

He also wasn't very fond of us lot in Ireland either. I'm well aware that Churchill's thoughts are from a different, bygone era and that the BNP's use of his ultimate greatness for propaganda is sickening, but it also pisses me off how people who should know better spout populist rhetoric about him rather than tell the whole truth about his character - something which was extremely important in the contect of the debate last night. We're not fucking stupid - I run a poxy wine shop for a living and I still know about the complexity of Churchill's character. If you are going to debate, do it properly - I wish to fuck David Starkey was on the panel last night.

3) Whenever the pannelists and David Dimbleby took him to task for quotes and soundbites he came out with in the past he either completely denied saying them, said they were taken out of context or claimed to have changed his mind over time. Most people who watched will feel comfortable that their fellow electorate will have seen through these denials but I will explain why a very great many will now believe him...

4) At one point the debate touched on the Ku Klux Klan - when Griffin claimed a leader was non-violent there were guffaws of laughter from the panel, the audience and my sofa. Now, that little soundbite was picked up by, among others, Sky News, and they presented it like this:

The MEP for North West England showed no shame as he defended the white-supremacist US hate group Ku Klux Klan, known for its lynch mob attacks on blacks.

He branded it "totally non-violent" while sat next to American-born black playwright and panellist Bonnie Greer.

However, what Sky News and other news agencies did not report was Griffin's comment immediately afterwards when he said that he shared a platform with a KKK leader to attack (the opposite of Sky News' assertion) the KKK's stance and to try and turn young people away from it. Now, you and I know he's talking a load of completely disingenuous shite, but when the media so blatantly quote-mine and remove items from their proper context people will pick up on it, and they will begin to ask themselves if Griffin was telling the truth about all his odious comments from the past!

5) Jack Straw came across as a complete and utter arse - his non-answer to the critical question about immigration ("a 75% reduction in the increase"...WTF???) when compared to Griffin's concise, clear and (on the surface) reasonable answer was devastating to watch. If it wasn't for the brilliant Sayeeda Warsi's interjection to save the day Griffin would have caused serious, serious damage, but I reckon he picked up tens of thousands of votes at this part of the programme - it was the one point when there was applause for Griffin beyond his supporters in the audience. The issue of immigration in the UK is massive and it is where Griffin will make headway.

6) The other panelists were allowed to talk at length and answer questions in their own time. Whenever Griffen tried to speak he was immediately jumped upon before he could answer fully and everything turned in to a slanging match. The panelists (apart from Baroness Warsi) were utterly mediocre - as I said, David Starkey would have been fantastic, and Ian Hislop would have went right for Griffin's jugular. Christ, no one even thought to ask why their web site was pulled, and no one seems to have checked the literature that used to be on their site - stuffed full of disgusting racist shit. I totally disagree with what people are saying about Bonnie Greer - she's been on Question Time a number of times and she comes across to me as an elitist pain in the arse who is full of her own self-importance and perceived genius.

7) What did a curious Joe Public learn about the BNP on last night's show?

a) They will stop immigration and repatriate illegal immigrants
b) Ethnic minorities who are legally resident in the UK are welcome to stay
c) They are against Islam and the so-called "Islamification" of the UK
d) They don't like gays but they will protect their rights to have relationships
e) The anti-semitic BNP was the only party in Britain to support Israel against Hamas. (This shit confuses people)
f) Most crucially - Griffin had what seemed to be very clear answers while the other politicians often came across as muddled and obviously toeing a party line - why couldn't Straw just say Labour had fucked up on immigration?

There is a vast swathe of the British public with whom these policies will resonate - 1 million people voted for the BNP at the last Euro elections and I'm afraid that figure will increase if the mainstream parties don't catch a grip and fight the BNP on their cores issues - hopefully last night was a start.

One other extremely important observation I made - in the 1980's and even up until about ten years ago Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were absolute pariahs within Ireland, the UK and internationally. They were seen as murdering scum by many - unrepentant terrorists with the blood of hundreds if not thousands on their hands. Their politics was extreme, brutal, dirty and ugly and the shout went up for a long time that this particular leopard couldn't change its spots.

Well they did change, with small, painfully slow steps - nice shiny suits, an electoral mandate, talk about moving on, reconciliation, blah blah blah...now they govern me and my fellow countrymen.

I'm not saying the same thing will happen in Britain, but look how Griffin has changed his appearance, his rhetoric, look how the veneer has changed, how he is trying to ease in to the national concsiousness and be very, very worried - he is not a stupid man (he's a Cambridge graduate). Hopefully we are coming out of recession, but I would not be surprised if it's a dead cat bounce and the worst is yet to come. If that's the case, the lessons of the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany would be well worth heeding. They went from 2.6% of the national vote in prosperous 1928 to 43.9% in depressed 1933 - I don't for a second think that even the worst case scenario would bring such a result for the BNP in modern Britain, but it is illustrative of the dangers and potential for growth of this party.

[Clinton Huxley]

A well argued post, Dev. I've not watched it yet but I had similar misgivings about the other panellists and whether they were the right people to take Griffin on. Hislop is an interesting idea, any decent sarcastic and quick-witted satirist would have been a good bet. Just yelling "fascist" at the guy is water off a ducks back, he needs to be mocked until he wees himself. On TV.