27 dead at Connecticut school, including 14 kids

[Jason]

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a bomb. Would you say then that bombs were the problem there?

True. But this is not the norm. In the USA, we see numerous cases of mass killings, and they almost always depend on guns.

Just try purchasing nitrate fertilizer anymore. You'll need some permits. You can get tons of urea. But this is because it does not blow up in connection with diesel fuel.

Another person misses the point.

You of all people should know the ease with which high explosives can be created. Fertilizer? Hah.

[Blind groper]

Just try purchasing nitrate fertilizer anymore. You'll need some permits.

I approve. I always though that NH4NO3 was too damn dangerous to be freely available. This development is positive and shows that a few politicians are not total dunderheads.

[Blind groper]

This stands in solid opposition to your assertion that the accessibility of firearms is causative.

My argument is that there are two causes.

1. Availability of firearms, and especially hand guns.
2. American gun culture.

Both need to be dealt with.

[Jason]

My argument is that there are two causes.

Both of which you'll have to provide evidence for. However, your first, is not an argument - it's an assertion not based in fact but on biased comparison between vastly disparate societies. The comparison between Canada and the United States is the closest you could hope for and stands in opposition to your assertion.

But do carry on. First, what is 'American gun culture'?

[orpheus]

Guns are not the problem and we agree.

OK. Guns are not the problem.
Tell me about all those mass killings in schools that occurred without guns.

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a bomb. Would you say then that bombs were the problem there?

Let's identify the real problem behind the atrocity, not the means used. Hmm?

Why then are bombs illegal to possess if they're not the problem?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Well, there is no way that a country can invade the US in any significant way without the US leveling it (even if that meant leveling some or all of the US at the time). If an army or Navy would get to our territory and mass hundreds of thousands of troops, and get into the the US, the US would quite simply have to pull out all the stops.

Allow me to rephrase that...

Well, there is no way that a gunman can invade any US school in any significant way without the US police leveling them (even if that meant leveling some or all of the US school at the time). If a gunman or bomber would get to our schoolyard, with accomplices, and get into a US school, the US would quite simply have to pull out all the stops.

Which is exactly what just happened...

Sadly, "pulling out all the stops" when 18 kids are dead is simply locking the stable door once the horse has bolted.


We are simply NOT talking about a sane act here. Deterrents DO NOT WORK when an assailant simply doesn't fucking care about the personal consequences! Look at 9/11?

What the USA needs to think long and hard about (and should have been thinking long and hard about for many decades) is how to go about continually assessing a citizen's suitability to own a firearm.

In short, the default position should be NO, unless you can provide a good reason why you need such a weapon and are willing to undergo regular, re-assessment of that reasoning, including psychological evaluation. As opposed to FUCK YES!!1!! You can have a gun - it is your constitutional right! Oh, btw, you're not planning on shooting up any schools are you? Nah! Course not!!

[Blind groper]

What is gun culture? Watch this for enlightenment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh6Ap9ldTs

[Jason]

Guns are not the problem and we agree.

OK. Guns are not the problem.
Tell me about all those mass killings in schools that occurred without guns.

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with a bomb. Would you say then that bombs were the problem there?

Let's identify the real problem behind the atrocity, not the means used. Hmm?

Why then are bombs illegal to possess if they're not the problem?

Explosives are not illegal to posses. You need the appropriate licenses, fairly easy to get in British Columbia at least.

[Jason]

What is gun culture?

Yes, what is gun culture. I'm waiting for you to define your term and support your assertion + argument.

[macdoc]

Why don't you think about 5,000 kids dead instead of trying to defend a situation that no other civilized nation suffers under. Fucking sickening
You have no argument other than childish " I wanna"......and thousands of kids die and thousands of injuries and deaths in the adult population result from catering to immaturity and some ridiculous fear of "big brother".

Stupid position hardly covers it.

[Tero]

Another person misses the point.

You of all people should know the ease with which high explosives can be created. Fertilizer? Hah.

I've handled hundreds of reagents. I won't touch anything with explosive potential. It's for specialists, special equipment.

[Jason]

I meant you're a chemist, not that you make bombs. Sheesh.

[Jason]

Why don't you think about 5,000 kids dead instead of trying to defend a situation that no other civilized nation suffers under. Fucking sickening
You have no argument other than childish " I wanna"......and thousands of kids die and thousands of injuries and deaths in the adult population result from catering to immaturity and some ridiculous fear of "big brother".

Stupid position hardly covers it.

If you wish to assume your position is 'smart' or 'correct' and you've definitely identified real problem that's your prerogative. If I wish to differ because I think otherwise that is, likewise, my prerogative. If this discussion offends you, the door is that way >

[Svartalf]

Guns are not the problem and we agree.

OK. Guns are not the problem.
Tell me about all those mass killings in schools that occurred without guns.

Sporks just aren't as effective.

Too bad Tim Mc Veigh and the Unabomber were not restricted to sporks... the guy who did this likely was just as deranged, and dangerous.

[Blind groper]

To Faku

Who wants to know what gun culture is. Obviously not anything simple, just as it is not possible to simply describe what Scottish culture is. I cannot describe it completely in a few words, but the following is a start.

It begins with the belief that everyone has a "right" laid down by some deity or other, to possess firearms. It includes the belief that firearms are somehow good. It includes the concept of the gun killer as hero, instead of villain as is a more proper perception. It includes the idea of guns as problem solvers instead of problem creators, which is the reality. In other words, it is a load of bullshit.