Hurricane Harvey

[Scot Dutchy]

Who built the new defences at New Orleans and are busy with Manhattan?

[pErvinalia]

You might regret boasting. Remember, Scot has spent a bit of time in North Queensland. Which gets hit by cyclones (i.e. hurricanes) most years.

The systems in the Netherlands are not built to ward off the effects of hurricanes. No country has such systems.

Yeah, but you were waving your dick around. Scot's dick might be bigger..

[mistermack]

In the absence of effective preventative measures, I still say that the market is the best tool for sorting out the flooding problems. Don't interfere in the insurance market, allow the industry to calculate the risk and the premiums, and to decline insurance if they want. So long as there is no monopoly, or collusion, the market works well in many walks of life. Until you start interfering.

People in uninsurable areas will get the benefit of cheap housing and will organise so that their belongings are safeguarded. People buying new will opt for raised houses etc etc, or fuck off somewhere else that is less flood-prone.

Have a national database that people can check for free to see the flood history of every street.
Pay Google to do it, incorporating it into Google Earth.
You could do something similar for forest fire hazard and avalanche.

[Forty Two]

...the Bushes and Reagan were not anywhere close to anything libertarian...

By libertarian I mean in the context of this discussion an exhortation of private initiatives undertaken by individuals to solve problems rather than communally organised projects. It's about personal responsibility of the individual and small government - the way you've always liked it.

This is not accurate. We have massive government assistance for folks ravaged by natural disasters. The reality is, though, that the US and most western countries have insurance industries, and what happens for most private people and businesses is that the damage done to their property is covered by insurance.

People like to rail against the US, and claim that it would be sooooo much better if we had a system where all this stuff is handled "communally" with the government managing it all. Well, in 2004, Punta Gorda florida was leveled by one of the most powerful hurricanes on record. Within 5 years, it was back and better than ever. http://www.tampabay.com/news/weather/hu ... an/1026135

I think people really don't understand what goes on in the US.

The issue is not that people don't want the government to "fix the flooding problem." There is no "system" that the government can put in place to save 23,000 miles of coastline from the Texas/Mexico border to the Georgia/South Carolina line.

So much for the vaunted American "can do" spirit. Ok then. Put it in the too hard basket and fucking drown or just abandon huge chunks of six or seven of your states. Let nature reclaim them. The US will have the greatest marine park/swampland in the world to add to all those greatest things they already possess.

It's just physics and fluid dynamics, my friend. And, you think $600 billion is an amount that could come close to setting up hurricane protection systems and such over the whole southern gulf coast and south atlantic coast? I mean - we don't know where these things hit landfall. Had we installed whatever system you think actually would work around Tallahassee FL or the panhandle, it would have been useless now. Which areas get the systems? All? Select few? What systems are you even talking about?

Define the "macro problem." Are you suggesting that there is a polder system that can be created to prevent Hurricane Harvey, a category 4 hurricane, from wreaking massive flood damage?

Yes. That would be the macro problem. Not fixable by 10 million property owners digging ten million French drains along the side of the houses, which is a solution that sometimes works, but even when it does work, only on a micro scale.

Once again - what system WOULD work? The Netherlands, for example, since that was mentioned, does not deal with hurricanes. This is a different problem.

Sounds good, but I think you are not clearly considering the scale of construction that you're describing.

I have noted before Laklak confirmed it (as if there was any need) that it is huge. So huge that I cannot put even an approximate dollar amount on it. That's why I used the word "fuckton".

You haven't even said what you'd suggest building. Fuckton doesn't describe the half of it. Just building what they have in the Netherregions would be trillions.

But, look, what they have in the Netherlands would not help Houston. Houston is situated as far from the coastal town of Galveston, TX, right on the Gulf of Mexico, as about Arnhem is from The Hague. If you overlayed the Netherlands on the map of texas by the coast, then you'd be talking about building stuff to fix the flooding in about Arnhem (like 50 to 60 miles inland), and not mere coastal flooding measures and dikes.

It's also a different kind of coast -- there are islands all along the gulf coast, and then an intracoastal waterway (still seawater) and THEN you get the mainland, usually across a bridge. These hurricanes drive across the beach downs, across the intracoastal, and onto the mainland, and in the case of Harvey it drove 50 more miles (80 km) to Houston, and drowned it.

I read a 2001 (I think) article in Scientific American which predicted the disaster to come that was named Katrina when it did arrive. It described what projects needed to be implemented to avert the disaster, how they would in fact prevent the hurricane from being a disaster and that their total cost would be 14 billion in 2001 dollars. And that is just a tiny sector of the problematic area.

I'd like to read the article before commenting. It may have been talking about sea level rise, or it may have been limited to the 9th ward (the area of New Orleans which is mostly below sea level) - recall that the flooding was not a much of an issue for the French Quarter of New Orleans and much of the city escaped that devastation.

I would be surprised if the Sci Am article discussed the totality of the devastation, and I would be surprised if the disaster measures it talked about would be applicable to many places outside of that specific area of New Orleans.

Whose happiness and safety should I worry about? Yours?

You can't possibly be so dense that you fail to comprehend what I'm getting at, so I guess you are now trying to troll me.

I read what you're getting at is that Americans are selfish, because they only care about their own safety and happiness. Am I close? If not, explain what you're getting at.

[pErvinalia]

In the absence of effective preventative measures, I still say that the market is the best tool for sorting out the flooding problems. Don't interfere in the insurance market, allow the industry to calculate the risk and the premiums, and to decline insurance if they want. So long as there is no monopoly, or collusion, the market works well in many walks of life. Until you start interfering.

Jeez, you've gone fully neoliberal! Never go fully neoliberal, dude.

Have a national database that people can check for free to see the flood history of every street.

We have that here. I'd be pretty sure that most places where government isn't anathema would too.

[Forty Two]

In the absence of effective preventative measures, I still say that the market is the best tool for sorting out the flooding problems. Don't interfere in the insurance market, allow the industry to calculate the risk and the premiums, and to decline insurance if they want. So long as there is no monopoly, or collusion, the market works well in many walks of life. Until you start interfering.

One of the main reasons I don't live on the beach is the cost of insurance. We are required to have flood insurance if you live within a certain distance from the beach. It's expensive. I don't want to pay it, and I don't mind driving to the beach when we go. And, I also consciously thought about hurricanes, and I decided I like being far enough inland where usually they have dissipated to the point of being just really scary storms.

People in uninsurable areas will get the benefit of cheap housing and will organise so that their belongings are safeguarded. People buying new will opt for raised houses etc etc, or fuck off somewhere else that is less flood-prone.

Have a national database that people can check for free to see the flood history of every street.
Pay Google to do it, incorporating it into Google Earth.
You could do something similar for forest fire hazard and avalanche.

That would be helpful. I'm sure the insurance companies would like that info to calculate premiums too.

...only... the progressive left will come in and suggest that it's not fair that people who live near bodies of water should pay more for flood insurance than those privileged to live at higher altitudes... We need nationalized insurance where higher altitude folks pay their fair share to subsidize the sea level and below sea level folks. The geographically privileged in Kansas and Wyoming have had it too good for too long.

[Forty Two]

In the absence of effective preventative measures, I still say that the market is the best tool for sorting out the flooding problems. Don't interfere in the insurance market, allow the industry to calculate the risk and the premiums, and to decline insurance if they want. So long as there is no monopoly, or collusion, the market works well in many walks of life. Until you start interfering.

Jeez, you've gone fully neoliberal! Never go fully neoliberal, dude.

What's the system on Oz?

Have a national database that people can check for free to see the flood history of every street.

We have that here. I'd be pretty sure that most places where government isn't anathema would too.[/quote]

Here is one of the sites in the US https://water.usgs.gov/floods/history.html - click there and look to the left side, and scroll down a bit. There's a map of the US, and you can click on any state and it gives flood history and data information state by state, and shows areas of the states.

I don't think we have a "street by street" map. However, I'd be interested in you linking to Oz's national database that lets you see the flood history of "every street," which you said "we have that here."

Excuse me while I ride my horse down to main street. I have a gunfight to attend at high-noon. It's going to take me a little time to get there, as I'll have to carefully avoid the starving poor people and dying cancer patients laying in the gutter on my way.

[pErvinalia]

Honestly, it would be better if you used the totally invented term "alt-left" than the progressive left. The progressive left is far bigger than the minority of nuts out on the fringe. Equating progressives with SJW and what..? anarchists?.. is just silly.

[Scot Dutchy]

Here is a good article written by Americans over Dutch water philosophy.

The Dutch Cure

What is happening in New Orleans after Katrina:

Why Doesn't New Orleans Look More Like Amsterdam?

[pErvinalia]

Have a national database that people can check for free to see the flood history of every street.

We have that here. I'd be pretty sure that most places where government isn't anathema would too.

Here is one of the sites in the US https://water.usgs.gov/floods/history.html - click there and look to the left side, and scroll down a bit. There's a map of the US, and you can click on any state and it gives flood history and data information state by state, and shows areas of the states.

I don't think we have a "street by street" map. However, I'd be interested in you linking to Oz's national database that lets you see the flood history of "every street," which you said "we have that here."

Here's one for my former city, which is the most flood prone capital city in Australia. http://floodinformation.brisbane.qld.gov.au/fio/ There's more maps and data at their site. You'd also likely get free stuff from Geosciences Australia, but I don't really give a fuck.

[Forty Two]

I wonder what would happen to the Netherlands if it got hit by a CAT 4 dropping 1.3 meters of water in a few days....

[Forty Two]

Here's one for my former city, which is the most flood prone capital city in Australia. http://floodinformation.brisbane.qld.gov.au/fio/ There's more maps and data at their site. You'd also likely get free stuff from Geosciences Australia, but I don't really give a fuck.

That's a good website. We in the "government is anathema" land have other sites, too. https://msc.fema.gov/portal/search The states and local governments do a lot here too - http://www.orangecountyfl.net/PlanningD ... ago97J96po
and private websites address it - https://www.mapwise.com/maps/florida/hazards.php

Properties are given "flood zone" designations, too, if they are in a historical floody place.

But, that's just government-hatin' gun-totin' rootin'-tootin' Merkins for ya! When we're not starving babies and throwing the sick out in the cold, we're too busy having our gunfights and duels to worry about no floods and hurricanes. We just pray 'em away!

[pErvinalia]

Good for youse!

[Hermit]

We have massive government assistance for folks ravaged by natural disasters.

What you lack is massive government expenditure on assets. Like polders and such. And when I say massive, I mean googol scale massive, or thereabouts. Sadly, even comparatively modest projects akin to the Hoover Dam and the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo space flight project are beyond you now.

It's just physics and fluid dynamics, my friend. [...] I mean - we don't know where these things hit landfall. Had we installed whatever system you think actually would work around Tallahassee FL or the panhandle, it would have been useless now. Which areas get the systems? All? Select few? What systems are you even talking about?

As I said, if you can't come up with a solution, fucking drown or evacuate the region. You had two 500 year sized hurricanes in 12 years. Only climate change "sceptics" will be surprised when that size hurricane will be reclassified as a 10 year sized hurricane. This really is not the right time to sit on your hands.

And, you think $600 billion is an amount that could come close to setting up hurricane protection systems and such over the whole southern gulf coast and south atlantic coast?

Please explain how you got from my mention of your $600 billion p/a military budget to claiming that $600 billion is an amount that could come close to setting up hurricane protection systems and such over the whole southern gulf coast and South Atlantic coast.

Skipping your repetitive stuff now, and its on to

I read what you're getting at is that Americans are selfish, because they only care about their own safety and happiness. Am I close?

Let me put it this way: Firstly, I have not used the word "selfish" once in this discussion. Secondly, I don't think a person exists who is not selfish. Thirdly, I don't regard selfishness per se as a negative trait. When I referred to "fucking idiots" and wrote "by all means don't worry about the big picture if your own happiness and safety is all you care about" I was expressing my frustration about your lot's preoccupation with individualism at the expense of seeing the big picture and hence your recognition that you must have a big organisation executing huge projects. Even a large number of small organisations cannot do that. They cannot structure and coordinate on the size of the scale necessary for the tasks. So, no, you are not close.

I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to express what I am getting at several time now, so I am not confident that I can make it clear to you by trying again using different words. On the other hand, I can't really expect you to sift through my previous posts either. You'll probably just skate across the relevant bits without grasping their meaning. What I'll do now is to do the sifting for you, paste them presently, and then you can ask me more questions. "the USA is infested with too many libertarians. Remedial measures would cost billions of dollars for the New Orleans area alone. It's not something that can be done on a local level. It requires a level of government control individualists will not tolerate." ""Master plan" explicitly involves a master, and if the owner of 1001 Myplace Close, Sinking, Florida, USA, to pick any of a number of libertarians as an example, is not that master, there will be no master plan." "I was arguing that the USA, being infested with libertarians up to its gunwales, is incapable of doing what is necessary to fundamentally attack the flooding problem because that would involve "big government". The Clintons and Obamas are only a little less libertarian than the Bushes and Reagans. All of them are limited in what they can do by the individualist mindset of the population they are presiding over." "You fixed a micro-problem - for now and for yourself alone. Ten million property owners digging ten million French drains along the side of the houses will not do it. Loisianna, Florida and Texas need a polder system on a larger scale than that of the Dutch to fix the macro problem. Yes, that requires the use of tax money, and a fuckton of it"

In my view your problem consists of being of an excessively individualist mindset. People with a more social/community mindset are no less selfish. They just try to achieve their selfish goals by different means. Of course people can also be excessively community minded. They usually finish up getting rolled by an autocratic leader or an oligarchy, but I think we can leave that aspect for another thread.

[Scot Dutchy]

I wonder what would happen to the Netherlands if it got hit by a CAT 4 dropping 1.3 meters of water in a few days....

Nothing. We would have defences in place if we were living in a hurricane zone. We plan and build for the 1 in 10,000 year event not the 1 in 100 year.