minimum wage

[SnowLeopard]

Luckily, this is not a view shared by most in modern western societies; it is merely a particularly nasty little end of the bell curve...

So what you're saying is ... Liberturds are bell ends?

[SnowLeopard]

Here's a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry be happy
In every life we have some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be happy

[JimC]

When discussing people who make use of social service/unemployment benefits etc., it is not fruitful to simply dismiss them as parasites. The majority would prefer to be doing some sort of work, and having the extra cash this entails. Certainly, governments need to make an effort to weed out the minority who are scamming the system, or have absolutely no intention of working. However, the majority are people with low educational attainments, sometimes with physical or mental health issues, for whom modern economies provide little opportunity to participate actively in society. Most of those do not become the violent thugs MrJonno fears, but lead lives of apathy, pointlessness and depression, which means their own children will start behind the eight ball in the race to become a valued member of society.

[pErvinalia]

OK, why does seeing another being in pain upset you, then? They are no relation to you, so why feel any anxiety? Fuck 'em, eh?

Evolutionary biology (its not a moral choice). To maximise my personal chances of survival I have to try and predict why others in my species and other species are thinking. If I can determine Mr Bad Human or Lion is angry with me its a good hint to run away, if I think Mr Nice Human likes me I can get some of his food and not starve

As a side effect of this is that you can get too much information and actually share their pain. The same neurons light up in your brain when you see suffering as do in the one actually suffering (you don't get a choice in the matter). Empathy is just a survival mechanism its neither morally good or evil but does frame how society works

We are biological machines and you are getting into some serious philosophy about free will in those circumstances

I think you are getting into some serious Evolutionary Psychology woo territory there. We are biological machines, but that doesn't mean every behaviour (let alone every physical trait/gene) has an evolutionary benefit. This sort of stuff you are pulling here is what's called a "just so" story. I hope Samsa sees this thread.

[pErvinalia]

Assuming no immediate risk to myself (the body not being in the middle of a still busy street, and the dog having a tag and clearly not being rabid) then yes. But only if I was on the scene.

OK, I'm willing to accept that if you weren't present you wouldn't do anything. But why would you go out of your way to help something so distant and unconnected to you as a stray dog, especially when you couldn't expect to reap any sort of benefit?

It's cost benefit. Notice that I said that the dog had a tag. There's no benefit to helping a stray (unless I'm looking to get a dog, but picking one up from a traffic accident is hardly ideal). There is a potential benefit to helping a dog with an owner. I often engage in low or no cost acts of kindness with those in my local community or social circles. This has a reputation benefit as well as sometimes leading to reciprocal benefits down the line.

If there are guaranteed benefits (often amounting to an exchange) then that's a factor. If the cost is minimal or nonexistent than that's a factor as well. My own moral code/heuristics (help people close to me whenever convenient, but not distant strangers) is based around maximizing the benefits of cooperating while minimizing the costs.

OK, so you see an animal or a person bleeding in the road only as an opportunity for gain? And if you have no opportunity to gain from helping them, then "fuck 'em"? And you're proud of that? You see that as a virtue? Seriously?

Yes. Only helping those in your local community or whom you know personally conveys a sense of loyalty that others respect. Being straight forward about the fact that I'm ultimately concerned with my own well being first is often found to be refreshingly honest, and people respect me for it. I make no attempts to force others to accept the same standards that I have chosen for when and how they will help others. I'm an honest, hard working, helpful neighbor and friend who doesn't belittle others for choosing their own values and priorities. In fact, my lack of condescending "holier than thou" judgement gives me a distinct social advantage over my liberal and religious friends, who both exert this tendency.

It does in your own moral code (and not in most others'), so that's just a circular argument. The problem is, you DO belittle others when you start ranting on about communists. And you may lack a condescending "holier than thou" attitude, but you more than make up for it with your condescending "my philosophy is too complicated for you to understand" bullshit. Notwithstanding that that is totally laughable, given we've heard this same broken record over and over and over again from the mini-hordes of libertarians going back to rdf days. I can guarantee you there's nothing you could tell me about your hollow philosophy that I haven't heard a thousand times before. Seriously, get with the program. This shit has been done to death on the internet for years. And your social darwin cost-benefit crap is straight out of Rothbard. Been there, done that, princess.

[JimC]

OK, why does seeing another being in pain upset you, then? They are no relation to you, so why feel any anxiety? Fuck 'em, eh?

Evolutionary biology (its not a moral choice). To maximise my personal chances of survival I have to try and predict why others in my species and other species are thinking. If I can determine Mr Bad Human or Lion is angry with me its a good hint to run away, if I think Mr Nice Human likes me I can get some of his food and not starve

As a side effect of this is that you can get too much information and actually share their pain. The same neurons light up in your brain when you see suffering as do in the one actually suffering (you don't get a choice in the matter). Empathy is just a survival mechanism its neither morally good or evil but does frame how society works

We are biological machines and you are getting into some serious philosophy about free will in those circumstances

I think you are getting into some serious Evolutionary Psychology woo territory there. We are biological machines, but that doesn't mean every behaviour (let alone every physical trait/gene) has an evolutionary benefit. This sort of stuff you are pulling here is what's called a "just so" story. I hope Samsa sees this thread.

Which is not to say there is not a grain of truth there, even if it is grossly simplified. There is an evolutionary sub-structure to the human mind, as well as the cumulative effects of culture and experience. The potential for empathy has a clear biological basis, but where and how it is expressed will be affected by life experiences to date.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, absolutely.

[FBM]

Drew, would you help a dog that had been hit by a car? A human? If so, why?

Assuming no immediate risk to myself (the body not being in the middle of a still busy street, and the dog having a tag and clearly not being rabid) then yes. But only if I was on the scene.

OK, so you see an animal or a person bleeding in the road only as an opportunity for gain? And if you have no opportunity to gain from helping them, then "fuck 'em"? And you're proud of that? You see that as a virtue? Seriously?

Yes...

Make up your mind, please. A little logical consistency goes a long way in a rational discussion.

[pErvinalia]

I find when you back libbo's into a corner, the truth always comes out and it's a nasty selfish fantasy. Most of them really are diabolical social darwinists when it comes down to it. They like to dress their sick ideology up in a bit of lipstick and a dress, but it always falls back to this natural law brutish tooth and claw nonsense.

[FBM]

I did notice a certain lack of alacrity in their responding to the empirical and logical data I provided.

[MrJonno]

Which is not to say there is not a grain of truth there, even if it is grossly simplified. There is an evolutionary sub-structure to the human mind, as well as the cumulative effects of culture and experience. The potential for empathy has a clear biological basis, but where and how it is expressed will be affected by life experiences to date.

Not sure all our behaviour has a survival benefit as basically we control the environment more than it we adapt to it but we got to this stage because of evolution when just to survive took everything we had.

[SnowLeopard]

Drew, would you help a dog that had been hit by a car? A human? If so, why?

Assuming no immediate risk to myself (the body not being in the middle of a still busy street, and the dog having a tag and clearly not being rabid) then yes. But only if I was on the scene.

OK, I'm willing to accept that if you weren't present you wouldn't do anything. But why would you go out of your way to help something so distant and unconnected to you as a stray dog, especially when you couldn't expect to reap any sort of benefit?

It's cost benefit. Notice that I said that the dog had a tag. There's no benefit to helping a stray (unless I'm looking to get a dog, but picking one up from a traffic accident is hardly ideal). There is a potential benefit to helping a dog with an owner. I often engage in low or no cost acts of kindness with those in my local community or social circles. This has a reputation benefit as well as sometimes leading to reciprocal benefits down the line.

If there are guaranteed benefits (often amounting to an exchange) then that's a factor. If the cost is minimal or nonexistent than that's a factor as well. My own moral code/heuristics (help people close to me whenever convenient, but not distant strangers) is based around maximizing the benefits of cooperating while minimizing the costs.

So how do you feel about donating blood.

Do you get paid to donate blood in the USA? I heard you did somewhere but I'm not sure.

In the UK you get tea and a biscuit.

Real biscuit btw not those things you lot incorrectly call scones and cover in gravy like barbarians.

[MrJonno]

Can I confirm my authoritarian credentials,

Blood donation should be compulsory for anyone who is healthy and no one should be paid for it. Basically another tax. It's the anti-libertarian principle of reminding people that being part of a community is not an inalienable right but something you pay for both financially and by behaviour. Even if we don't need all the blood and just pour it away its the principle that is important

Organ donations on death should also be compulsory, the living need your kidneys more than your corpse. If you or your family have objections tough shit

[FBM]

There is no law against being a douchebag. I just thought I might throw that in there.

[SnowLeopard]

Blood donation should be compulsory for anyone who is healthy and no one should be paid for it. Basically another tax. It's the anti-libertarian principle of reminding people that being part of a community is not an inalienable right but something you pay for both financially and by behaviour. Even if we don't need all the blood and just pour it away its the principle that is important

oh god oh god oh god oh god someone phone Seth