Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[Blind groper]

Yes! The Jews control America! I'm surprised it took seven pages though.

Not what I said at all. I said that, according to the political analysis I read, a small number of very wealthy Jews had bought significant political influence. Not control. This is not something that should surprise anyone. Lots of wealthy people and groups of people have gained political influence. eg. the oil industry lobby.

[Seabass]

Well, I'm sure the oil industry lobby is controlled by The Jews as well.

[mistermack]

So suicide bombers are attacking military objectives? Rocket attacks are aimed at combatants?

What are they "defending" with those attacks?

If someone breaks into your house, and holds you and your family captive, how can it be equally immoral for you to attack him, as it is for him to attack you? You have a right. He has no right.
He's free to leave. You are tied.
And if he moves his family in, it's HIS fault, if they get hurt.

To treat the two the same is ludicrous.

And if you lose one of your family to a violent robber, it's a tragedy. If you lose ten, THEN perhaps you will understand the difference. I would have thought you wouldn't need it to actually happen to see the difference, but never mind.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If someone breaks into your house, and holds you and your family captive, how can it be equally immoral for you to attack him, as it is for him to attack you? You have a right. He has no right.
He's free to leave. You are tied.
And if he moves his family in, it's HIS fault, if they get hurt.

The problem is, if we stick with your analogy, the Palestinians are killing people who didn't break into their house.

The people who were born in Israel had no choice as to where they were born, and yet here it is you're saying it's okay to kill them simply because of the accident that they happened to be born in Israel. I reject that.

Insofar as the IDF commits incursions into Palestinian territory, Palestinian violence is justifiable.

Tell us -- who was it who rejected Palestinian statehood in 1948?

To treat the two the same is ludicrous.

Nonsense. What is ludicrous is holding the current generation guilty for Israel's formation, to the extent that you justify their murder.

[mistermack]

So you think that if your parents steal something, then once it passes to you, it's legitimate?

The problem with that is that it's the Jews themselves who don't agree with you.
They are demanding back, and getting, valuables and property that were taken by the Nazis. Even though it's all been passed on, and sold on, many times.

How come it only works one way? How come Jewish property must be returned, and Palestinian birthright is gone forever? Because it's one rule for the Jews, and the complete opposite for the Palestinians.

And what I justify is a war of liberation, not murder.
You steal someone's home, you take the chance of harm. And so do your kids.

[Pappa]

So you think that if your parents steal something, then once it passes to you, it's legitimate?

The problem with that is that it's the Jews themselves who don't agree with you.
They are demanding back, and getting, valuables and property that were taken by the Nazis. Even though it's all been passed on, and sold on, many times.

How come it only works one way? How come Jewish property must be returned, and Palestinian birthright is gone forever? Because it's one rule for the Jews, and the complete opposite for the Palestinians.

And what I justify is a war of liberation, not murder.
You steal someone's home, you take the chance of harm. And so do your kids.

I've been meaning to start a discussion about "Sins of the fathers" for several months. Never got round to it.

[Blind groper]

The solution, as I have said before, is to create anew Palestinian state, sovereign and independent, which includes all the territories Israel obtained by military conquest.

In the attempt to gain this, it is Israel who has the moral duty to bend back the furthest, since Israel is the prime offender.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So you think that if your parents steal something, then once it passes to you, it's legitimate?

The problem with that is that it's the Jews themselves who don't agree with you.
They are demanding back, and getting, valuables and property that were taken by the Nazis. Even though it's all been passed on, and sold on, many times.

How come it only works one way? How come Jewish property must be returned, and Palestinian birthright is gone forever? Because it's one rule for the Jews, and the complete opposite for the Palestinians.

And what I justify is a war of liberation, not murder.
You steal someone's home, you take the chance of harm. And so do your kids.

So you think if your dad robs a bank, you should go to prison?

Also, I haven't argued one way or the other about the return of property expropriated during the Holocaust.

[Seabass]

The solution, as I have said before, is to create anew Palestinian state, sovereign and independent, which includes all the territories Israel obtained by military conquest.

In the attempt to gain this, it is Israel who has the moral duty to bend back the furthest, since Israel is the prime offender.

What's the statute of limitations on land claims? Why shouldn't New Zealanders give lands obtained by military conquest back to the Maori?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Good luck with that one, Seabass. I'm still awaiting a square answer four or so pages after bringing it up myself.

[mistermack]

So you think if your dad robs a bank, you should go to prison?

No, and that doesn't follow from what I said.
And I certainly don't think you should be allowed to keep the money.

Also, I haven't argued one way or the other about the return of property expropriated during the Holocaust.

No, but it's relevant that the Jews demand it's return.

I personally think that the land beneath your feet is different to money and oil paintings.
A home land is something we all take for granted. It's easy for people living in safety and comfort in Britain and America to criticise Palestinians. We have absolutely no idea what it's like to live how they do.
I'm not a big fan of inheritance. But even for me, if there is just one thing you should be able to inherit, it's the right to freely inhabit the land of your own people.

I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.

[Blind groper]

Why shouldn't New Zealanders give lands obtained by military conquest back to the Maori?

We are in the process of doing just that. Or else paying compensation.

The NZ government set up a body called the Waitangi Tribunal to hear land claims and negotiate settlements.
http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/claims/
Already hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid out. Some Maori tribes are now quite wealthy.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So you think if your dad robs a bank, you should go to prison?

No, and that doesn't follow from what I said.

Sure it does. You're justifying the Palestinian killing of Israelis on the grounds of Israel being founded on Palestinian land, when the Israelis alive today weren't alive at that time, nor did they choose to be born ion Israel.

Justifying such is no different, logically, than justifying your execution for a murder committed by your father.

No, but it's relevant that the Jews demand it's return.

I personally think that the land beneath your feet is different to money and oil paintings.
A home land is something we all take for granted. It's easy for people living in safety and comfort in Britain and America to criticise Palestinians. We have absolutely no idea what it's like to live how they do.

Good points, and going to show the limitations of arguing by analogy.

I'm not a big fan of inheritance. But even for me, if there is just one thing you should be able to inherit, it's the right to freely inhabit the land of your own people.

It's certainly complex, and not really amenable to solution-by-Internet-forum.

I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.

Where were they born?

Would not forcibly relocating them be unjust, in the sense that it punishes them for the decisions made by their forebears -- and just as pertinent, by the forebears of the Palestinians?

[Blind groper]

What's the statute of limitations on land claims?

My apologies. I forgot to answer this question.

The current New Zealand compensation program for land stolen off the Maori has a statute of limitations going back to 1840. Any lands confiscated or otherwise taken from Maori, apart from legal land purchase, back to that date is subject to a claim, and a settlement with appropriate compensation.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

What's the statute of limitations on land claims?

My apologies. I forgot to answer this question.

The current New Zealand compensation program for land stolen off the Maori has a statute of limitations going back to 1840. Any lands confiscated or otherwise taken from Maori, apart from legal land purchase, back to that date is subject to a claim, and a settlement with appropriate compensation.

There you go then. Obviously New Zealand law applies. Now, can someone please tell that to the Austrolopithecus that keep demanding their traditional foraging lands in my porch?