We need to talk about Donald: the cursing & swearing thread

[Sean Hayden]

There is no doubt that the loony right have been emboldened all across the world, but particularly in the US under Trump. I'm really not sure what the malfunction people like Sean, Siva and 42 suffer under. I don't understand how these people can see targeting members of the most evil ideology the world has ever seen as lamentable. IT'S FUCKING NAZISM FFS.

I'm not protecting nazis. I'm protecting regular folks from the extremes of political theater. :superman:

[JimC]

The loony right isn't growing in the US. We continue to move further left across many fronts. I gave a few examples before, gay marriage, drug/prison reform, healthcare reform.

Our guns continue to be a major problem regardless of who owns them.

There may be a form of polarisation happening. Without good figures, it is hard to say whether the actual proportion of people who would subscribe to "alt right" views has grown, but I think that both their activity level and the support from people in Trump's administration has grown.

As rEv suggested, such increased activity is not incompatible with a more general cultural shift to the left.

[JimC]

rEv, I think you are misunderstanding Sean's (somewhat confusing) position if you were to lump him with 42. He seems to be basically fed up with some aspects of the anti-fa people, for example, rather than supporting the alt right...

[pErvinalia]

There is no doubt that the loony right have been emboldened all across the world, but particularly in the US under Trump. I'm really not sure what the malfunction people like Sean, Siva and 42 suffer under. I don't understand how these people can see targeting members of the most evil ideology the world has ever seen as lamentable. IT'S FUCKING NAZISM FFS.

I'm not protecting nazis. I'm protecting regular folks from the extremes of political theater. :superman:

You're not doing shit, other than sitting on the fence. Bad shit happens while good people sit around and let it happen.

[pErvinalia]

rEv, I think you are misunderstanding Sean's (somewhat confusing) position if you were to lump him with 42. He seems to be basically fed up with some aspects of the anti-fa people, for example, rather than supporting the alt right...

No, they are all from the same naive liberal camp. They believe that the right for anyone to preach any shit, no matter how toxic and demonstrably evil, unimpeded is more important than growing a spine and facing down that evil. It's incredibly naive, and most people who hold these views live comfortable lives where they've never experienced oppression, and/or lack the ability to empathise with those that have.

[Sean Hayden]

Bad shit also happens when people act rashly. I'm not convinced that there isn't a better way to proceed than what we're witnessing here.

[JimC]

rEv, I think you are misunderstanding Sean's (somewhat confusing) position if you were to lump him with 42. He seems to be basically fed up with some aspects of the anti-fa people, for example, rather than supporting the alt right...

No, they are all from the same naive liberal camp. They believe that the right for anyone to preach any shit, no matter how toxic and demonstrably evil, unimpeded is more important than growing a spine and facing down that evil. It's incredibly naive, and most people who hold these views live comfortable lives where they've never experienced oppression, and/or lack the ability to empathise with those that have.

It depends what you mean by a "right" to speak their position. If you mean that they should have no legal right, then (unless it is truly hate speech and incitement to violence, which some of it is, I know) then I would disagree. But if you think the Sean means that they should have the right to their demos etc. without robust opposition, then of course they don't have that right - they need to have their arguments strongly, publicly and continuously opposed. Whether this should mean shouting down their speakers can be a contentious issue too - freedom of speech is not unlimited, but neither is it to be discarded too easily, in the way that the authoritarian left tends to do...

[JimC]

In Oz, I get the feeling that at least some of the anti-fa demonstrators are not really in it for ideological reasons, but because they get a buzz out of street fighting, and the whole tribal "them vs us" thing...

[cronus]

Nazism is a form of Communism, maybe not in the mechanics, but the outcome is identical and should be seen as the threat it is. Saying that violence feeds on itself and should be avoided lest good men become the monsters they are trying to prevent. Direct action sites say pacifism and non-violent disobediance is the most likely to succeed method of bringing political change....

[pErvinalia]

Bad shit also happens when people act rashly. I'm not convinced that there isn't a better way to proceed than what we're witnessing here.

What is that way, then? And if you say 'dialogue' I'm going spit my coffee all over the screen.

[pErvinalia]

In Oz, I get the feeling that at least some of the anti-fa demonstrators are not really in it for ideological reasons, but because they get a buzz out of street fighting, and the whole tribal "them vs us" thing...

You and others need to stop conflating antifa with black-block. They are totally different groups.

[Sean Hayden]

Well, I was kind of hoping to focus on the problem of American workers being pussies, who'd happily secure their masters desires at the expense of their own.

But, ya know, nazis.

[JimC]

Nazism is a form of Communism, maybe not in the mechanics, but the outcome is identical and should be seen as the threat it is. Saying that violence feeds on itself and should be avoided lest good men become the monsters they are trying to prevent. Direct action sites say pacifism and non-violent disobediance is the most likely to succeed method of bringing political change....

Nonsense. They overlap in some political dimensions, in particular the primacy of the totalitarian state, but one is not a subset of the other.

[JimC]

In Oz, I get the feeling that at least some of the anti-fa demonstrators are not really in it for ideological reasons, but because they get a buzz out of street fighting, and the whole tribal "them vs us" thing...

You and others need to stop conflating antifa with black-block. They are totally different groups.

I am, in particular, referencing the violent counter-protests against the anti-Islamic protests that have been common in both Melbourne and Sydney. The masked and violent protestors of the left were anti-fa, I'm fairly sure...

[cronus]

They are the same. When I was younger I thought like you Jim. Everything logical and in its right place. But I was wrong. Human beings don't follow 'the plan' only kill one another in the name of it.