The failure of capitalism

Post Reply
User avatar
lofuji
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:46 am
About me: habitual drunkard, cannabis connoisseur; no wonder I never get anything done.
Location: rural china
Contact:

The failure of capitalism

Post by lofuji » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:51 pm

I've just been reading a report on the BBC news website about how coal is powering much of China's economic expansion, which is bad enough given its likely effect on global warming and climate change, but the bit that really struck me was the following:

Jeff and Ada Qian both work as IT specialists for international firms in Shanghai. At home in their flat they and their 10-month-old son Tim enjoy many of the comforts of modern life. They have air conditioning, a car, a fridge, a washing machine and two televisions.

“I feel so far our life is good,” Jeff tells me. “But I think people always have ambitions,
you always want to have more. If I have more money I want to have a better car, a bigger apartment.

Today perhaps one-third of China’s 1.4 billion people live like this, and many of the rest aspire to.

“I think many of China's people would like a lifestyle like us," says Ada.
The bit I've highlighted sums up succinctly what's wrong with the modern capitalist system, which emphasizes the individual and his/her personal needs over the needs of the collective. Who cares about tomorrow? I want, I want, I want!

Here we have an obviously prosperous couple who still want more, when there is only so much to go round. When are we going to get a social and political system that encourages people to use less, not consume more? Answer: only when the various crises that are likely to kick in over the next couple of decades really hurt, when people are affected personally. The recent financial meltdown should have been a wake-up call, but already we're almost back to business as usual, particularly for the wbankers and others at the top of the greasy pole of acquisition and accumulation who caused the problem in the first place. So we're poorly placed to withstand the next crisis when it comes along. What will that be? Well, my bet is that degradation of the global environment, which has been increasing rapidly in recent years [destruction of forests, rapacious extraction of minerals and other raw materials, etc.] is going to start having a big effect on people's lives fairly soon. You can't expect finite resources to last for ever, but we behave as if we do. And the environmental crunch, when it comes, will make the credit crunch seem like a minor blip.

And what about the population crunch, when that comes? It is an iron law of ecology that the population of a species cannot exceed the carrying capacity of the environment it finds itself in. We as a species are clever enough to be able to postpone the inevitability of an ultimate population crash, but not clever enough to see that we cannot do so indefinitely. Drastic action is needed NOW on all fronts. The human race is in deep shit, and those of us at the top of the tree must drastically downsize our lifestyles, not encourage others to climb to our level. Unfortunately, I don't expect anyone to follow this advice until we can actually see the precipice ahead, by which time it will be too late to find out that the brakes don't work.

lofuji
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out brief candle
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. [
Macbeth]

It am wicked to mock the afflicted. [
BH (Calcutta), failed]

Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope. [
Freewheelin' Franklin]

personal blog:
the view from fanling [stories about Hong Kong and any other shite I can think up]

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:00 pm

China isn't a capitalist country, it's a command economy mixed with a fascist regime.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by FBM » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:09 pm

Yes!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The current model of "civilization" is most likely a dead-end experiment in the chronicles of mankind, as far as I can tell. We're probably going to take ourselves to the brink of self-extinction before we finally, desperately, pull our collective heads out of our collective asses and start thinking about how to live on this finite rock in a way that doesn't lead to self-destruction. There's no way to sustain growth-based economies indefinitely with finite resources. It's delusional to think and act otherwise. I hope we eventually learn that sustaining ourselves requires sustaining the environment, including the other living creatures that make up this intricate, inter-connected web of life. That will mean living modestly, being happy, satisfied and thriving without the prevalent obsessive-compulsive drive for more and more of more and more. [/soapbox]
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Rum » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:48 pm

The 'special economic zones' are effectively capitalist. Hong Kong certainly is. What they don't have is a liberal democracy to go with that, which is the western model of course.

China is steaming ahead with 'green tech' and is producing more units of wind turbines, solar panels and so on than any other country (and exporting a lot of it!), but continue to burn coal like nobody's business.

It isn't sustainable and personally I don't think we can stop it even if we manage to slow it down a bit. The consequences of the climate change to follow are pretty unpleasant to ponder.

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Drewish » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:09 pm

Liberty
Trade
Progress
Ambition
err... Heart!

By your powers individually operating in a free market system, I am Captain Capitalism!
Image
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
AshtonBlack
Tech Monkey
Tech Monkey
Posts: 7773
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:01 pm
Location: <insert witty joke locaction here>
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by AshtonBlack » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:21 pm

Oh nano tech...... hurry up and get me that personal fabricator!! Oh and fusion, get your fucking act together. Finally, space exploration and exploitation better hurry the fuck up!

Capitalism works best in an recourse rich environment, when the resources get scarce capitalism sucks donkey balls for the average human. (All IMHO, of course.)

10 Fuck Off
20 GOTO 10
Ashton Black wrote:"Dogma is the enemy, not religion, per se. Rationality, genuine empathy and intellectual integrity are anathema to dogma."

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Drewish » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:25 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:Capitalism works best in an recourse rich environment, when the resources get scarce capitalism sucks donkey balls for the average human.
Capitalism has the added bonus of keeping the population low with starvation and disease when the resources dry up :tup:
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
AshtonBlack
Tech Monkey
Tech Monkey
Posts: 7773
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:01 pm
Location: <insert witty joke locaction here>
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by AshtonBlack » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:27 pm

andrewclunn wrote:
AshtonBlack wrote:Capitalism works best in an recourse rich environment, when the resources get scarce capitalism sucks donkey balls for the average human.
Capitalism has the added bonus of keeping the population low with starvation and disease when the resources dry up :tup:
Yes indeedy. A form of natural selection? and there was I thinking we humans were more grown up than that. :dono:

10 Fuck Off
20 GOTO 10
Ashton Black wrote:"Dogma is the enemy, not religion, per se. Rationality, genuine empathy and intellectual integrity are anathema to dogma."

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Drewish » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:34 pm

Evolution, you may not believe in it, but you can't escape it. Capitalism is never going away, if only because it doesn't require anyone to implement it. It just springs up naturally whenever people have property rights. So the only way to kill it is by taking away people's property rights. That's not going to go over so well in a free society. Therefore, to get rid of capitalism you need to take away people's freedom. Hence why I love capitalism with every fiber of my being. Yeah Capitalism! :D
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74177
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:05 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:China isn't a capitalist country, it's a command economy mixed with a fascist regime.
But they have incorporated many aspects of the capitalist ethos, including consumerist aspirations...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by FBM » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:53 pm

AshtonBlack wrote:...Capitalism works best in an recourse rich environment...
Y'know, that was a very insightful typo... :eddy:




It was a typo, right?
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:13 am

JimC wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:China isn't a capitalist country, it's a command economy mixed with a fascist regime.
But they have incorporated many aspects of the capitalist ethos, including consumerist aspirations...
The Chinese assimilate every invader.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by Ian » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:55 am

Some of the worst environmental damage done in history was in the USSR and in earlier days of the PRC. Neither were remotely capitalist.
But y'know which country annually plants more trees to help stave off the effects of carbon emmissions than any other on Earth? China.

Anyway, capitalism itself is hard to define, and pure capitalism is a very rare thing. The closest the US ever got to pure capitalism of the caveat emptor variety was in the 1890s. Today US is a hybrid system of capitalism and socialism (hence things like a minimum wage, unions, the FDA, OSHA, Dept. of Labor, unemployment benefits, etc.). I'd also question the OP's notion that it's a system that "emphasizes the individual and his/her personal needs over the needs of the collective". It doesn't deliberately prioritize a collective, but it also doesn't mean that those living with it are almost hopelessly driven by consumerism. There's some truth to it as human nature, but I think it's more of a cliche than an overwhelming reality.

I'm sorta babbling. I've had a couple drinks. :drunk:

User avatar
FedUpWithFaith
Account Suspended at Member's Request
Posts: 1700
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: The failure of capitalism

Post by FedUpWithFaith » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:54 am

I agree with you Ian. I don't think the sky is falling on Capitalism or the human race, though both need a lot of tweaking. I think the best way to deal with climate change is to have a more prosperous world, not a poorer one. If some resources become scarce, then their cost will go way up and demand will subside. I'd go long on mankind to continue to find ingenious ways to advance in the face of what today look like insurmountable obstacles. I'm sure there will be some hiccups along the way and if we're unlucky, i suppose things could go to shit. But I'm not betting on it.

The main danger inherent in capitalism is it's susceptibility to speculative fear and the natural levers it seeks and wields to corrupt democratic processes. Vigilant and prudent regulation is required.

Though I am concerned about over-population, I view educated and conscientious people as our best resource. Which place has the bigger over-population problem - Hong Kong or the Sudan? It's pretty obvious even though HK has by far the higher population density.

I think people will also adapt to scarcity as they always have but that doesn't necessarily have to mean a lowering in the standard of living. 200 years ago in the US you didn't have to be very wealthy to have hundreds, in many cases thousands of acres not far from a city or major town. Obviously, today that is not the case. I'm sure that many of those people would be appalled to contemplate the US as being a place where a fairly average family could not aspire to a large farm or homestead. But today, most people have other priorities.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 14 guests