Europe about to lose population?

[Svartalf]

Cameron is setting conditions for the UK remaining in the EU which are 'highly problematic'... me, I say good riddance to bad business, especially if Sscotland and Wales secede from the UK to remain in Europe.

At the same time, Catalunya is saying it's going to secede from Spain... most of Spain's land boundary is in Catalan territory, the Basque are not going to like this

[Trinity]

I fucking hate Cameron; he and his goons are destroying that which the majority of us would like kept sacrosanct. Bastards, the lot of them. If I was a highly trained ninja death squad, I would whoop their flabby privileged arses.

[Rum]

Cameron has got himself into a tight spot. He has to pander to the raving xenophobes in his party while he believes, quite rightly in my view, that we are better off as part of the Union. Serious debate is hard to be had with this though as everybody quotes different and conflicting figures and both sides predict dire consequences if we stay/go and therefore they fall back on emotional arguments and prejudices.

Not that Cameron isn't a cunt or anything..

..oh - leaving will make a second Scottish referendum happen sooner.

But the Welsh will just trot along beside England and do as they are told.

[cronus]

Scotland will be in a right mess going it alone. Whilst England/Wales seen these Chinese people - short circuit lots of European bureaucracy....great time for smugglers of cheap tat into Europe?

[Scot Dutchy]

The arrogance of the man is appalling. He thinks he can change Europe? The changes he wants have to be approved by the 27 other countries, the European parliament and the Commission. He is so politically naive it is just not true. He has ignored Europe for years. Took the tories out of the largest and most important group in the EU parliament and started his own faction which was only supported by the right wing Polish party.

He has not got a clue how European politics work. He is a fool. If Britain pulls out then good riddance. Give the Little Englanders their wet dream.

[cronus]

The arrogance of the man is appalling. He thinks he can change Europe? The changes he wants have to be approved by the 27 other countries, the European parliament and the Commission. He is so politically naive it is just not true. He has ignored Europe for years. Took the tories out of the largest and most important group in the EU parliament and started his own faction which was only supported by the right wing Polish party.

He has not got a clue how European politics work. He is a fool. If Britain pulls out then good riddance. Give the Little Englanders their wet dream.

Post-peak oil all these mega unions of nations are buckling, look at the Middle East?...that is the future for Europe. Soviet Union looked strongest in the few years preceding its collapse....appearance means nothing. Like a pyramid scheme first out is the winner if they time it well...

[MrJonno]

The people who want to leave the EU want to do so because there are too many Muslims/brown people in the UK

Does that make any sense whatsoever, of course not but any sort of debate it just pointless. Hopefully the middle classes will vote and outnumber much of the very dumb working/underclass and this country will actually stay together and not turn into some backward part of Texas

[Scot Dutchy]

The arrogance of the man is appalling. He thinks he can change Europe? The changes he wants have to be approved by the 27 other countries, the European parliament and the Commission. He is so politically naive it is just not true. He has ignored Europe for years. Took the tories out of the largest and most important group in the EU parliament and started his own faction which was only supported by the right wing Polish party.

He has not got a clue how European politics work. He is a fool. If Britain pulls out then good riddance. Give the Little Englanders their wet dream.

Post-peak oil all these mega unions of nations are buckling, look at the Middle East?...that is the future for Europe. Soviet Union looked strongest in the few years preceding its collapse....appearance means nothing. Like a pyramid scheme first out is the winner if they time it well...

The Middle East a mega union?

The EU is unique in the world. So how do you compare it? The trouble is the majority of people in Britain have not got a clue what the EU is about. All they get is info from the Euro-sceptic camp conveyed by the right wing press.

Cameron may get crumbs of concessions which can be used in the referendum but the major changes he can forget about. Freedom of movement is a fundamental principle which will never be changed.

[MrJonno]

Cameron isnt an idiot and is pro European, but he might get very minor changes that won't fool anyone pro or against EU.

Going to have 18 months of so called 'debate' when the % of people who will actually change their mind on the issue will be about 0.0001%, waste of money should just get the UK suicide over with(literally the UK won't survive leaving the EU it will split)

[mistermack]

Personally, I've always been pro-Europe, but I'm right in the middle of don't-know country now.

A lot of the negative stuff about Europe used to be manufactured by the press, but nowadays, it's real, and it's out in the open.

The way that the small countries were ignored, overruled and treated as unimportant by Merkel and the French over taking migrants has shown what it's really about.

There's no democracy involved in European decisions. It's all done by un-elected courts and backroom deals between bigwigs.

Did Merkel have to announce to the Germans that Germany would take a million migrants? No.
Did the other countries have anything of the sort in an election manifesto? Nope.
In the modern Europe, you never get a say.

So it won't break my heart, if we vote to leave. And I really don't know which way I would vote any more.

[MrJonno]

As far as I'm concerned my vote is basically worthless if we leave as the UK is to put it bluntly not viable as an independent sovereign country as in every other countyrunless you are a superpower you don't have a lot of influence with your own future unless you gang other with others who are at least vaguely on the same page ie the EU

[mistermack]

I think that Cameron is working on the theory that the UK leaving is the last thing that the European bigwigs want.
Apart from the big contribution that the UK makes, the EU countries will lose automatic access to the huge UK market.
Far from the UK having to beg, it will be just as much the UK setting the terms of the new relationship.
If the EU chooses to make life hard, we can make it just as hard, or harder. Which would actually be a disaster for Scotland, if it voted to stay in and split from the UK.

And the other big problem for the EU is that they really don't want the UK to set an example, of countries leaving, and flourishing. That could be the beginning of a slow death for the whole club, with net contributors leaving, and only lame-duck countries wanting to stay in.

So both Europe and the UK would have problems, but Europe has plenty to lose.

[Svartalf]

The bigwigs don't really want the UK leaving, but if pandering to cameron means undermining the EU, you bet they'll cut their losses, our stance is that the UK has more to lose by leaving than us by seeing them go...

[NineBerry]

Personally, I've always been pro-Europe, but I'm right in the middle of don't-know country now.

A lot of the negative stuff about Europe used to be manufactured by the press, but nowadays, it's real, and it's out in the open.

The way that the small countries were ignored, overruled and treated as unimportant by Merkel and the French over taking migrants has shown what it's really about.

There's no democracy involved in European decisions. It's all done by un-elected courts and backroom deals between bigwigs.

However, that is exactly the result of people arguing for more influence of the nations. More rights for the European Parliament and a real European government elected directly by the people or by the European Parliament has been blocked by the nationalists. And the UK was a very important voice in that.

You can't first prevent more democracy and then whine that there is too little.

[mistermack]

However, that is exactly the result of people arguing for more influence of the nations. More rights for the European Parliament and a real European government elected directly by the people or by the European Parliament has been blocked by the nationalists. And the UK was a very important voice in that.

You can't first prevent more democracy and then whine that there is too little.

Yes you can. If you want democracy and power to operate at country level, rather than EU level.
Having power at country level doesn't automatically mean that you lose democracy.
The people who don't like the EU don't want them making decisions that countries should be making for themselves.
Especially decisions like, who do you let into your country.

What they are doing is trying to run it like a United States of Europe, without the political organisation, or feeling of nationhood, that the US enjoys.
They are trying to bring it about, bit by bit, inch by inch, without actually asking people, "do you want a United States of Europe? "