Idiots

[Blind groper]

Seth

There is very little CREDIBLE evidence that hand guns save more than a tiny number of people. There are very few legal killings with hand guns in a year by civilians, in self defense. And about 40 times as many illegal killings by civilians with hand guns.

I know that your mate Lott talks of 2.5 million DGU's but that has been well and truly discredited by other academics. I also know that the FBI comes up with a more credible number of 70,000. But even that is just based on those people who face a perceived threat with a gun, and claim later the gun saved them. The problem with those 70,000 is that they are all, without exception, based on subjective perception, and there is no solid evidence that the guns were actually needed.

My own guess is that the number of times a gun actually saves someone is in the hundreds per year. Whereas, hand guns are used in 8000 murders each year. The difference is night and day.

[Calilasseia]

Ah, the American gun fetish once again.

Quite simply, in the dysfunctional and pathological social environment present in many parts of the USA, guns are used as a substitute for maturity and character. The sort of people who gravitate toward the hoarding of large arsenals of lethal weapons, tend to be the sort of people who are trying to tell the world that they're people of substance, when in reality many of them have stunted ethical development that ground to a halt at about the same time they were first being let out of their nappies and plastic pants, a clinically significant case of narcissistic personality disorder, a simplistic binary view of the world fuelled by a diet of bad Hollywood movies, and a violent antipathy to education arising from their own incompetence in basic classes. This is frequently associated with a tendency to indulge in vainglorious self-aggrandisement, a vastly inflated view of their prowess across a broad spectrum of pursuits, rampant xenophobia, a visceral hatred for anything that doesn't conform to their petty little bigotries, and in some cases florid phenotypical manifestations indicative of recursive genealogy.

On the other hand, the people living alongside these specimens, who don't share the same tendency to masturbate over lethal metal, have a habit of being educated, well-mannered, compassionate, socially and ethically competent, exude a healthy suspicion of in-groups, exhibit an enlightened view of human diversity, harbour a well-founded mistrust of power elites not grounded in merit, and possess properly functioning bullshit detectors.

I think the requisite data supporting the above conclusions, on its own points to the madness that is the American gun fetish. Unfortunately, this particular psychovirus is both tenacious and virulent.

[Blind groper]

Calilassea

Even I wouldn't go quite that far. But I admire your use of the English language, showing a flourish of word smithery that is definitely entertaining.

[Seth]

Seth

There is very little CREDIBLE evidence that hand guns save more than a tiny number of people.

Circumstantial ad hominem fallacy. The rest of your argument is dismissed as utter bullshit, which it is.

My own guess is that the number of times a gun actually saves someone is in the hundreds per year.

Assuming arguendo you are correct (which you're not) it's pretty clear that you don't give a fuck about any of those "hundreds" of innocent individuals and would just as soon they be disarmed and therefore killed.

You don't give a fuck about this guy and you'd be perfectly comfortable if he had died because he didn't have a gun because the only thing you give a fuck about is your bogus statistical argument, not actual living human beings.

Whereas, hand guns are used in 8000 murders each year.

By armed criminals, against which each and every person has a right to be equipped to effectively defend themselves.

[Seth]

Ah, the American gun fetish once again.

Quite simply, in the dysfunctional and pathological social environment present in many parts of the USA, guns are used as a substitute for maturity and character. The sort of people who gravitate toward the hoarding of large arsenals of lethal weapons, tend to be the sort of people who are trying to tell the world that they're people of substance, when in reality many of them have stunted ethical development that ground to a halt at about the same time they were first being let out of their nappies and plastic pants, a clinically significant case of narcissistic personality disorder, a simplistic binary view of the world fuelled by a diet of bad Hollywood movies, and a violent antipathy to education arising from their own incompetence in basic classes. This is frequently associated with a tendency to indulge in vainglorious self-aggrandisement, a vastly inflated view of their prowess across a broad spectrum of pursuits, rampant xenophobia, a visceral hatred for anything that doesn't conform to their petty little bigotries, and in some cases florid phenotypical manifestations indicative of recursive genealogy.

On the other hand, the people living alongside these specimens, who don't share the same tendency to masturbate over lethal metal, have a habit of being educated, well-mannered, compassionate, socially and ethically competent, exude a healthy suspicion of in-groups, exhibit an enlightened view of human diversity, harbour a well-founded mistrust of power elites not grounded in merit, and possess properly functioning bullshit detectors.

I think the requisite data supporting the above conclusions, on its own points to the madness that is the American gun fetish. Unfortunately, this particular psychovirus is both tenacious and virulent.

And you don't give a fuck about this "educated, well-mannered, compassionate, socially and ethically competent" guy who got fucked up or anybody else who gets fucked up because of you, you just want to "wordsmith" your way out of your own personal culpability for this man's injuries and the injuries and deaths of every other person in your country who is victimized, injured or killed by violent criminals because you denied them all effective tools of self-defense. Disgustingly immoral of you.

[Blind groper]

Seth

As long as you reject all statistical and numerical arguments, you are tacitly agreeing to the murders of innocent people.

8000 Americans are murdered each year with hand guns. I know you are insufficiently educated to understand the importance of numbers, and would rather cling to the occasional individual anecdote, like the intellectual dinosaur you are. But you are wrong!

[Jason]

Seth would you stop putting that image up with every post? Is it your new pornographic priestess type thing for shock value used in lieu of force of argument? It's a horrific beating near the point of death, we've seen it, we got it.

[Calilasseia]

Ah, the American gun fetish once again.

Quite simply, in the dysfunctional and pathological social environment present in many parts of the USA, guns are used as a substitute for maturity and character. The sort of people who gravitate toward the hoarding of large arsenals of lethal weapons, tend to be the sort of people who are trying to tell the world that they're people of substance, when in reality many of them have stunted ethical development that ground to a halt at about the same time they were first being let out of their nappies and plastic pants, a clinically significant case of narcissistic personality disorder, a simplistic binary view of the world fuelled by a diet of bad Hollywood movies, and a violent antipathy to education arising from their own incompetence in basic classes. This is frequently associated with a tendency to indulge in vainglorious self-aggrandisement, a vastly inflated view of their prowess across a broad spectrum of pursuits, rampant xenophobia, a visceral hatred for anything that doesn't conform to their petty little bigotries, and in some cases florid phenotypical manifestations indicative of recursive genealogy.

On the other hand, the people living alongside these specimens, who don't share the same tendency to masturbate over lethal metal, have a habit of being educated, well-mannered, compassionate, socially and ethically competent, exude a healthy suspicion of in-groups, exhibit an enlightened view of human diversity, harbour a well-founded mistrust of power elites not grounded in merit, and possess properly functioning bullshit detectors.

I think the requisite data supporting the above conclusions, on its own points to the madness that is the American gun fetish. Unfortunately, this particular psychovirus is both tenacious and virulent.

And you don't give a fuck about this "educated, well-mannered, compassionate, socially and ethically competent" guy who got fucked up or anybody else who gets fucked up because of you

Exactly what influence did I have on this individual, who I didn't even know existed until you posted that horrible photo? Oh wait, I don't wield political power, unlike some of the inbreeds I described above.

you just want to "wordsmith" your way out of your own personal culpability for this man's injuries

Well since I've never assaulted anyone in my life, your above assertion is complete hooey.

and the injuries and deaths of every other person in your country who is victimized, injured or killed by violent criminals because you denied them all effective tools of self-defense.

Bullshit. Oh wait, I do my bit with respect to providing for an effective police force in my home country, one that, lo and behold, doesn't need to dick around with guns to get the job done. I'll remind you that there are fewer homicide related deaths in my country every decade than there are in yours in a week. As for violent criminals, having an armed populace in your country, and a police force equipped with enough weapons to invade Africa, doesn't seem to deter them, you have them in far greater quantity over there than I do over here.

Disgustingly immoral of you.

As opposed to the disgusting immorality of you using someone I've never seen before to erect fake charges of culpability in violent assault? You might want to take a look at the nastiness in your bathroom mirror sometime, before shooting off your Internet mouth.

[Seth]

Seth
As long as you reject all statistical and numerical arguments, you are tacitly agreeing to the murders of innocent people.

No, by rejecting your bullshit statistical evasions I'm supporting the right of each person to effectively defend themselves, in which the only "statistic" involved is that 100 percent of humans have an unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self defense 100 percent of the time.

8000 Americans are murdered each year with hand guns.

And 2.5 million aren't because they have defensive firearms.

I know you are insufficiently educated to understand the importance of numbers, and would rather cling to the occasional individual anecdote, like the intellectual dinosaur you are. But you are wrong!

There's nothing "occasional" about 2.5 million self-defense firearms incidents per year. And even if it's only 80,000 self-defense firearms incidents that the FBI has VERIFIED from crime reports to police, that's TEN TIMES the number of people saved by their defensive firearms than are killed by criminals. And as more and more people carry guns in public for self defense, that 8000 number you continue to cite continues to go down every year as more and more people are able to defend themselves from criminal attack.

Take away those guns and "statistically" speaking ten times more people will be murdered each year. You don't give a fuck about those people, be it 80,000 or 2.5 million or some other number. You don't care how many people get killed at all. All you care about is taking guns away from people who might need them for self defense. The only people I know of who have such attitudes are themselves violent criminals who want to use the law to make their crimes safer for them to perpetrate.

[Seth]

Seth would you stop putting that image up with every post? Is it your new pornographic priestess type thing for shock value used in lieu of force of argument? It's a horrific beating near the point of death, we've seen it, we got it.

No, I will not.

In fact I'm going to make it my avatar because people who want to ban guns need to see the wages of their sin.

[Jason]

All you care about is taking guns away from people who might need them for self defense. The only people I know of who have such attitudes are themselves violent criminals who want to use the law to make their crimes safer for them to perpetrate.

Yes. All we care about is taking away yer guns. And yer jobs. But guns first. If you kids can't play nice with your toys the responsible adults of the rest of the world will have to change your constitution for you and take them away. For your own good.

We don't want to visit America to play 21st century cowboy in the wild, wild, west. We have well structured hierarchies of authority which protect us from the sort of fear that perpetuates, perpetrates, and permeates, the American siege mentality and we're going to help you build your own. We're coming for your guns Seth - it's true. The only question is do you have the balls to hand em over peacefully or do you feel lucky.

[Seth]

All you care about is taking guns away from people who might need them for self defense. The only people I know of who have such attitudes are themselves violent criminals who want to use the law to make their crimes safer for them to perpetrate.

Yes. All we care about is taking away yer guns. And yer jobs. But guns first. If you kids can't play nice with your toys the responsible adults of the rest of the world will have to change your constitution for you and take them away. For your own good.

You can try. But then again that's why we exercise our right to keep and bear arms, so that we can rid the world of those who would presume to deny us the free exercise of our rights.

We don't want to visit America to play 21st century cowboy in the wild, wild, west. We have well structured hierarchies of authority which protect us from the sort of fear that perpetuates, perpetrates, and permeates, the American siege mentality and we're going to help you build your own.

Your "structured hierarchies of authority" didn't help this poor fucker, did they?

black eye avatar.jpg (21.06 KiB) Viewed 3100 times

So fuck your "structured hierarchies of authority," we've got our own that works better.

We're coming for your guns Seth - it's true. The only question is do you have the balls to hand em over peacefully or do you feel lucky.

I feel lucky. Do you?

"Well, do you, punk?" Dirty Harry

If you want them, do come and try and take them yourself. Don't be a fucking coward and send someone to do it for you, suck it up and come knocking on my door yourself demanding that I turn my guns over. You'll get your answer immediately.

[Jason]

How many Sandy Hooks and Columbines is that guy worth? Could we drag out pictures of murdered children and swap them like playing cards?

[Blind groper]

Seth

The FBI figure of 70,000 DGU's do not equate to 70,000 lives saved. They only equate to 70,000 times someone got a gun out to threaten someone who they felt threatened by. Not the same thing at all, and only an idiot would equate them.

[Seth]

Exactly what influence did I have on this individual, who I didn't even know existed until you posted that horrible photo? Oh wait, I don't wield political power, unlike some of the inbreeds I described above.

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

you just want to "wordsmith" your way out of your own personal culpability for this man's injuries

Well since I've never assaulted anyone in my life, your above assertion is complete hooey.

But you support disarming people like him, which leaves him helpless to defend himself, and therefore you are complicit and culpable for his injuries.

and the injuries and deaths of every other person in your country who is victimized, injured or killed by violent criminals because you denied them all effective tools of self-defense.

Bullshit. Oh wait, I do my bit with respect to providing for an effective police force in my home country, one that, lo and behold, doesn't need to dick around with guns to get the job done.

"... the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence." Sir Robert Peel

The police are a reactive organization that has no duty in law to protect any individual citizen from any particular crime. Such protection is entirely the duty of each and every individual citizen because the police cannot, perforce, be everywhere at all times to provide individual security to citizens. Therefore, the need and the right of each person to keep and bear such arms as are required for his or her effective self-defense is both universal and unalienable. In short, when criminal violence is imminent, the police are but minutes away, and they will do a sterling job of cleaning up and investigating and perhaps apprehending the criminal, but you will still be dead or looking like this guy:

black eye avatar.jpg (21.06 KiB) Viewed 3094 times

I'll remind you that there are fewer homicide related deaths in my country every decade than there are in yours in a week.

I'm sure that each of those homicide victims, and the hundreds of thousands of violent crime victims who end up looking like this:

black eye avatar.jpg (21.06 KiB) Viewed 3094 times

appreciate being reduced to a statistical argument in favor of banning the guns that might have kept them from being victims.

As for violent criminals, having an armed populace in your country, and a police force equipped with enough weapons to invade Africa, doesn't seem to deter them, you have them in far greater quantity over there than I do over here.

Thus the need for law-abiding individuals to be adequately armed with tools of effective self-defense at all times. The police, you see, are almost never where they need to be to protect any particular individual from any particular criminal. Criminals always have the tactical advantage of surprise in their favor and in most cases the crime is complete and any injury or murder has been completed by the time the police even hear about the incident, much less respond to it. Therefore, in order to effectively defend oneself against criminal victimization it is necessary that each and every potential victim be adequately armed so that they can take defensive action in a timely manner that greatly enhances their chances of preventing or stopping the crime.

The recent attack on a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs is a salient example of this principle. Because no one in the clinic, employee, patient or visitor, was armed, the shooter had ample opportunity to shoot at responding police and other bystanders, including a military veteran who, despite being shot, ran inside and warned clinic workers of the threat, which gave them time to activate their well-practiced active shooter plan and hide in safe areas, which substantially reduced the number of dead and wounded.

If that vet, or anyone else in or around the clinic had been armed with a lawfully-carried concealed firearm they might have been able to fire on the killer and wound, kill or deter him, thus reducing death and injury. But nobody did until the police arrived minutes later and, unfortunately, through bad tactical planning, drove right into the kill zone where they were fired upon and four were wounded and one officer killed.

Disgustingly immoral of you.

As opposed to the disgusting immorality of you using someone I've never seen before to erect fake charges of culpability in violent assault? You might want to take a look at the nastiness in your bathroom mirror sometime, before shooting off your Internet mouth.

Do you not support the banning of handguns and/or other firearms for self-defense purposes? If you do not, which is not indicated by the post to which I responded, then say so and I'll apologize.

But if you do advocate or support disarming law-abiding individuals then you are just as responsible for any and all deaths or injuries that occur because individuals have been disarmed by your government as the criminals themselves.