The Second amendment

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rainbow
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by rainbow » Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:50 am

Seth wrote: Never mind, I'll use small words for your benefit: "Unalienable" means that the government cannot arbitrarily deny you such rights, not that government cannot regulated the time, place and manner of the exercise of those rights.
The US government arbitrarily denies US citizens the right to walk onto aeroplanes bearing loaded firearms.

Fact.
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:11 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:Uh ahh. Cop, journalist, master debater, survivalist and now Walter has a pilot's license as well - a veritable polymath in the US sense of the word.
Yup. Commercial pilot, Airplane, Multi-engine, Instrument.
No jobs available for a pilot with your qualifications?
No Class 1 medical due to decades of disability requiring narcotic pain meds due to a back injury and then, when I finally got past that, diabetes and high blood pressure.

No money to fly non-commercially since I pranged my Maule M5. Flying light aircraft for pleasure is like shooting heroin, if you can't afford to do it all the time, don't do it at all because it just makes you jones for more.

By the way, "polymath" is a great description of my breadth of knowledge and experience and happens to be quite true.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:19 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote: Never mind, I'll use small words for your benefit: "Unalienable" means that the government cannot arbitrarily deny you such rights, not that government cannot regulated the time, place and manner of the exercise of those rights.
The US government arbitrarily denies US citizens the right to walk onto aeroplanes bearing loaded firearms.

Fact.
It's neither arbitrary nor a "denial" of a right, it's the reasonable regulation of the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms necessitated by a compelling government need to regulate the personal possession of loaded firearms in the passenger cabin of commercial aircraft consisting of the least possible interference with the right to keep and bear arms that actually achieves the legitimate government purpose. Which is to say that it is NOT illegal to transport a firearm on the aircraft you are flying on, it is merely required that you unload it, place it in a locked container, and have that container inspected by DHS prior to placing it in your checked baggage.

You can keep on trying to make a bogus argument by claiming that reasonable time, place and manner regulations constitute an unconstitutional denial of the right to keep and bear arms, which you do for the purposes of obliquely and abstrusely suggesting that because one particular regulation of the right is constitutional that therefore any and all regulation of the right must also therefore be constitutional. This, of course, is the fallacy of composition.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:30 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Um, Mr Dictionary...
inalienable


/ɪnˈeɪlɪənəb(ə)l/


adjective

adjective: inalienable


not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor.
It's "unalienable" not "inalienable," but yes, that's what it means. What's your point?
:fp:

Actually, inalienable is the more correct term. But otherwise, they mean exactly the same thing.

What's the point? Read the fucking definition. "NOT SUBJECTED TO BEING TAKEN AWAY". Try getting on a plane with a gun. You won't be able to. So it's not inalienable, as you don't have the right to bear arms on plane. :fp:
The right is not taken away, it is merely regulated with respect to the time, place and manner of its exercise. If the right were "taken away" then, as a product of boarding a commercial aircraft, one's right to keep and bear arms would forever be denied. That's not what happens.

You can "get on a plane with a gun" anywhere in the US, all you have to do is unload it, case it, show the case to DHS, stow it in your checked luggage and board the plane.

And when you get off the plane, you still have your rights and your gun. That's called "reasonable regulation of the time, place and manner of exercising the right to keep and bear arms authorized by a compelling government need to so regulate and consisting of the minimum necessary regulation that actually achieves the compelling and legitimate government purpose for so regulating."

You, like every other anti-gun nut, try to make the specious connection between a reasonable and necessary regulation of the time, place and manner of exercising the right and an alleged but unfactual power of the government to unconstrained plenary actions that go beyond reasonable and necessary regulation and are factually nothing more than an outright denial of the right.

You wrongly think that because the government has certain carefully limited powers to reasonably regulate the time, place and manner of the exercise of the right consistent with both constitutional restrictions on government power and a compelling need to so regulate, government therefore has the power to do whatever the hell it pleases, or whatever the hell the tyrannical majority tells it to do, specifically including outright bans on firearms.

Well, that's simply not the case and never has been.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:49 am

Seth wrote: By the way, "polymath" is a great description of my breadth of knowledge and experience and happens to be quite true.
:funny:
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:50 am

Polymath want a cracker? :{D
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 08, 2016 2:52 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Um, Mr Dictionary...
inalienable


/ɪnˈeɪlɪənəb(ə)l/


adjective

adjective: inalienable


not subject to being taken away from or given away by the possessor.
It's "unalienable" not "inalienable," but yes, that's what it means. What's your point?
:fp:

Actually, inalienable is the more correct term. But otherwise, they mean exactly the same thing.

What's the point? Read the fucking definition. "NOT SUBJECTED TO BEING TAKEN AWAY". Try getting on a plane with a gun. You won't be able to. So it's not inalienable, as you don't have the right to bear arms on plane. :fp:
The right is not taken away, it is merely regulated with respect to the time,
Of course it is taken away. By your retarded logic we could regulate a gun owner with respect to time by removing his right to bear arms for 99.9% of his life. It's just a regulation with respect to time, after all...
You can "get on a plane with a gun" anywhere in the US, all you have to do is unload it, case it, show the case to DHS, stow it in your checked luggage and board the plane.
So there shouldn't be any problem requiring all gun owners to unload their guns and case it, and stow it in a gun locker/safe. :coffee:
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by rainbow » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:02 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote: Never mind, I'll use small words for your benefit: "Unalienable" means that the government cannot arbitrarily deny you such rights, not that government cannot regulated the time, place and manner of the exercise of those rights.
The US government arbitrarily denies US citizens the right to walk onto aeroplanes bearing loaded firearms.

Fact.
It's neither arbitrary nor a "denial" of a right, it's the reasonable regulation of the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms necessitated by a compelling government need to regulate the personal possession of loaded firearms in the passenger cabin of commercial aircraft consisting of the least possible interference with the right to keep and bear arms that actually achieves the legitimate government purpose.
Yada, yada.

It is the denial of the 'right' to bear arms.
You lose. :smug:
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Tero » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:07 pm

Yet another mentally unstable man gets gun by legal or illegal means. Makes no difference with hundreds of millions of guns unsecured and floating around.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/thr ... ha-n518866
shoots two and himself over girlfriend issue.

it's basically the legal gun owners or purchasers that are supplying the guns. There should in fact be a prison sentence for any sloppiness securing and locking up the legal gun. Fine for letting someone steal it. Yes, you had a lethal weapon. Your fault for losing it, even by theft.
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Tero » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:05 pm

I would prefer a CO canister, rather painless. But in America we have the right to shoot yourself:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.expres ... ckstar/amp#

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:55 am

Note to self:
Where did the 2nd amendment text first appear? A state constitution? How much earlier?

Got:
Some of these purposes were explicitly mentioned in early state constitutions; for example, the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 asserted that, "the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state".

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Tero » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:34 am

And:
Many Anti-federalists feared the new federal government would choose to disarm state militias. (Wiki)

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by rainbow » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:37 am

Tero wrote:Note to self:
Where did the 2nd amendment text first appear? A state constitution? How much earlier?

Got:
Some of these purposes were explicitly mentioned in early state constitutions; for example, the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 asserted that, "the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state".
An angel came down from heaven and presented it to the founding fathers, engraved onto golden tablets.
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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Tero » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:53 pm

In many states, the right to have a militia, separate from a federal army, was a main motivation for the amendment both in federal and state documents.
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_b ... ndment.htm

The 2nd amendment was never about national gun policy. They did not even imagine the federal government should rule on guns. More of a local matter.
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_b ... ndment.htm

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Re: The Second amendment

Post by Seth » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:01 pm

Tero wrote:Note to self:
Where did the 2nd amendment text first appear? A state constitution? How much earlier?

Got:
Some of these purposes were explicitly mentioned in early state constitutions; for example, the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 asserted that, "the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state".
Way earlier than that. Gun ownership was MANDATORY under several of the Colonial ordinances. Citizens were required to show up to church on Sunday with their musket and required kit for inspection and drill.

It was King George's attempt to DISARM Colonists that triggered the Revolutionary War.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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