Only in America

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Sean Hayden
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:34 pm

:?

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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:03 pm

All ground apes are human but some are more human than others. :prof:
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:40 pm

As is typical on Ratzian threads, the polarisation has set in. The 2 extremes seem to be:

1. No matter what the situation, it is never right to use a weapon to attack or possibly kill a burglar, no matter what he might be doing in your house, or what danger you and your family might be. Leave it to the police...

2. If any gosh-darned thieving bastard so much as sets foot on your property without leave, fill the varmint with hot lead!

Surely the correct answer is much more nuanced, and situationally dependent. If you or your family are in clear and present danger from an intruder, you have the means available (gun, club, whatever) and no other option is possible, then clearly you should have the right to take whatever steps are needed. Sometimes, however, you may actually be safer if you simply allow them to steal whatever, and not get into a fight that could easily turn out badly for you. In the case of someone stealing a car from your driveway, shooting them dead would be considered to be murder under in any civilised community (which apparently does not include Texas...)
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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:26 am

A Kansas bill could make schools liable for shootings if they don't arm teachers

As the debate over arming teachers in schools reverberates across the country, Kansas is doubling down on the idea.

A new bill would not only authorize the arming of Kansas school staff, it would hold schools responsible if a shooting were to occur and the teachers and staff present were not allowed to be armed.
Here's the exact wording from House Bill 2789:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/28/us/k ... index.html
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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:15 am

Knowing a variety of teachers over a 40 year career, arming quite a few of them would be a very, very bad idea... :tea:

Particularly Physical Education teachers! :nervous:
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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:36 am

My best advice for potential car thieves, don't mess with Texas.

We're pretty secure here. Good doors and locks, loud dog, alarm, very bright exterior lights that come on with the alarm, hurricane windows you can't easily break, and a police station three houses down. Just campus cops, but they'll respond in an emergency. Would be very difficult to break in, and there would be one fuck of a lot of noise. Anyone who would continue to try and break in, with all that going on and knowing the house is occupied, which they would because I'd be screaming my head off, is obviously crazier than a shithouse rat. If they actually got in I wouldn't take any chances, I'd shoot them without further warning. Assuming my neighbor didn't come out and shoot them first, of course.

If they left I certainly wouldn't chase them, nor would I shoot them for stealing a car. It's all insured, after all.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:51 pm

JimC wrote:As is typical on Ratzian threads, the polarisation has set in. The 2 extremes seem to be:

1. No matter what the situation, it is never right to use a weapon to attack or possibly kill a burglar, no matter what he might be doing in your house, or what danger you and your family might be. Leave it to the police...

2. If any gosh-darned thieving bastard so much as sets foot on your property without leave, fill the varmint with hot lead!
Or, the position I advanced, which is neither of those.
JimC wrote: Surely the correct answer is much more nuanced, and situationally dependent. If you or your family are in clear and present danger from an intruder, you have the means available (gun, club, whatever) and no other option is possible, then clearly you should have the right to take whatever steps are needed.
Sure, but when these things happen, it's not particularly clear whether there is "no other option possible." So, the nuance is more like "if you reasonably believe you are at risk of death or serious bodily harm..." then you can use the force you reasonably believe is necessary to repel or stop the threat. It's not fair to ask the mother of two daughters to have to conduct a lot of threat assessment analysis to determine if maybe she had an option, at midnight, on a Tuesday, when someone broke into her house...

JimC wrote: Sometimes, however, you may actually be safer if you simply allow them to steal whatever, and not get into a fight that could easily turn out badly for you. In the case of someone stealing a car from your driveway, shooting them dead would be considered to be murder under in any civilised community (which apparently does not include Texas...)
Well, it does include Texas, except in a limited set of circumstances specified in the statute. But, I have overall agreement with you here, that if someone is outside your home, then shooting them from afar as you watch them stealing the car is not appropriate. However, if you're in the car, and they're trying to get in and steal it, then I think you ought to have the right to not be at that risk.

It's not just a question of figuring out what the criminal really wants and only using deadly force if you're sure they want to kill you. We individuals have a right not to be put in that situation in the first place, so setting up the law such that it puts more onus on a wrongdoer, and less on an innocent party, seems reasonable to me.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:20 pm

Yep, it doesn't lack nuance at all. In fact Jim's position is very rigid. He's stated that it should be possible for not only the homeowner to know what is the correct course of action in that situation, but also for us to know as well.

Whereas my point was just to focus attention on the victim's plight in the hopes of giving them --in our minds at least-- more freedom to act as they see fit given the nature of the situation they were put in.

In the car case at the very least we need to inquire as to the victim's state of mind during the incident. Like I said, losing your transportation at the wrong time...

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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:56 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:In fact Jim's position is very rigid. He's stated that it should be possible for not only the homeowner to know what is the correct course of action in that situation, but also for us to know as well.
If you or your family are in clear and present danger from an intruder, you have the means available (gun, club, whatever) and no other option is possible, then clearly you should have the right to take whatever steps are needed. Sometimes, however, you may actually be safer if you simply allow them to steal whatever, and not get into a fight that could easily turn out badly for you.
I disagree with the "rigid" summation. The quote above clearly shows that I accept that there is more than one possible solution to a home invasion, and that I am accepting that in some circumstances lethal force would be justified, but also that not fighting back can be the safest option in many circumstances. I'm certainly not saying that it would be an easy choice to make.

In Oz, aggravated burglaries (home invasions with the use or threat of violence) are often done to steal (or demand) car keys, and then the car is stolen by the offenders (typically armed with clubs or knives, not guns). In virtually all situations where the homeowner remains calm and simply hands them the keys or other valuables, no violence happens (and of course they are total arseholes, often young, violent thugs who rarely escape subsequent arrest; punishments should be heavier, IMO...). There have been cases where a strong male homeowner (or more than one male) has taken up a club of some sort and chased them out successfully. In plenty of other instances, though, resistance has been attempted and the homeowner bashed. It's a gamble...

Clearly, the relative absence of guns, for both homeowners and assailants in Oz, makes the decision tree rather different...
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:15 am

I remember a case not long ago in Oz where the residents (a few males) fought back in such a situation and ended up beating the shit out of the home invaders and taking one of them captive. If I remember correctly, they got in a lot of trouble and some of them wound up with criminal convictions. I'm not going to check, of course, as Hermit will do it shortly... :{D
Last edited by pErvinalia on Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:17 am

That's a perfect example of why our system is superior. None of the motherfuckers would still be alive enough to complain.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:04 am

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Only in America

Post by Joe » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:44 pm

What woman in her right mind puts a loaded pistol in her vagina? :shock: :o

Now we know.

Plea Deal For Woman With Gun In Body Cavity
Witt and Clinton McDonald, 29, were arrested following a traffic stop on Interstate 55 just north of Bloomington. A search of the pair’s vehicle turned up heroin and Ecstasy, police reported.

Witt was subsequently transported to the McLean County jail, where arrestees are subjected to a strip search. It was during that procedure that a female jailer recovered a loaded Kimber .380 caliber handgun from Witt’s vagina. The weapon, cops say, had a fully loaded clip and a bullet in the chamber. The gun, seen below in a photo from the manufacturer’s web site, is 5.6” long and weighs 13.4 ounces with an empty magazine.

Witt’s rap sheet includes multiple arrests, including collars for theft, passing bad checks, and resisting arrest.
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:46 pm

That's Seth's next wife right there..
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Re: Only in America

Post by Joe » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:53 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:46 pm
That's Seth's next wife right there..
:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:
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