Hillbillies and guns.

[Tyrannical]

Hillbillies were British Scots. Keep that in mind before you make fun of them

[FBM]

Whachoo mean "were"?

[Blind groper]

On preparing for disaster.

First, predict your disaster. The best basis for such prediction is to see what disasters have happened in the recent past. The more such disasters in your country, the more likely one will happen in the future. So if I were living in the US mid west, I would look seriously at how to survive a tornedo. In my country, I would be more concerned about earthquake.

Personally, I have a small stock of emergency food and first aid equipment, and water. I can survive in my home without outside help for a month. Experience with likely disasters elsewhere shows that this is ample.

On this basis, how sensible are those who build bomb shelters and stockpile weapons?

Answer : not at all!

There have been no disasters in either NZ or the USA for non criminal groups that require either. If the Americans here are preparing for tornedos, or hurricanes, I say well done. If they are preparing for armageddon, I say : "What a bunch of loonies!"

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Disasters are notoriously hard to predict and there doesn't necessarily need to be an 'event' in any single country for a disaster to occur there:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

This (the UK) is the most densely populated country in Europe. What do you think would be the upshot of a similar disaster today? What would happen if the supermarkets suddenly ran out of food?
I'm guessing the effects might include more than mere starvation. I think it reasonable to assume (or at least prepare for) mass migration, social and economic upheaval, widespread poverty, overloaded and underfunded healthcare and cuts in all sorts of essential services. It's not an unrealistic scenario.

[laklak]

Part of my hurricane preparations, which I take pretty seriously since I live in Hurricane Central, is a well stocked armory. As Jack pointed out, in the aftermath of a catastrophic storm there will be those who ignored the warnings and did not prepare. They won't have food, water, fuel, medicines, a generator or other necessities. A certain percentage of those people will resort to looting or robbery in order to obtain those things. There is also a segment of the population who would see a disaster like that as a perfect opportunity to get a new TV or car, rape somebody, or just engage in a bit of random violence. Look up "Hurricane Katrina" for an object lesson in just how fucked up some people are. Hence the necessity for arms.

[FBM]

The aftermath of Katrina could be used as an example of why it's a good idea to arm yourself against rogue police, for that matter.

[JimC]

Part of my hurricane preparations, which I take pretty seriously since I live in Hurricane Central, is a well stocked armory. As Jack pointed out, in the aftermath of a catastrophic storm there will be those who ignored the warnings and did not prepare. They won't have food, water, fuel, medicines, a generator or other necessities. A certain percentage of those people will resort to looting or robbery in order to obtain those things. There is also a segment of the population who would see a disaster like that as a perfect opportunity to get a new TV or car, rape somebody, or just engage in a bit of random violence. Look up "Hurricane Katrina" for an object lesson in just how fucked up some people are. Hence the necessity for arms.

When cyclones (our term for hurricanes) have hit in various parts of Australia, there has been massive destruction at times, but relatively little looting (some from supermarkets, I gather) and virtually no violence. The same applies to our other major potential disaster, bush fires. There is certainly need for rational preparation and stock-piling supplies in areas threatened by such events (not so much in suburban Melbourne, but at least we have water tanks...). There is absolutely no need to stockpile weapons in societies such as Australia and NZ. The fact that there might exist such a need in the US is rather sad...

[JimC]

The aftermath of Katrina could be used as an example of why it's a good idea to arm yourself against rogue police, for that matter.

That may be true in certain places of the US, but it's not true in civilised regions of the world...

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

I reckon population density of the area affected has a lot to do with it, Jim.
...The denser the population, the rarer resources will be per head of pop...Therefore aliens competition will arise for said resources.

[piscator]

Whachoo mean "were"?

The legend of Junior Johnson! In this legend, here is a country boy, Junior Johnson, who learns to drive by running whiskey for his father, Johnson, Senior, one of the biggest copper still operators of all times, up in Ingle Hollow, near North Wilkesboro, in northwestern North Carolina, and grows up to be a famous stock-car racing driver, rich, grossing $100,000 in 1963, for example, respected, solid, idolized in his hometown and throughout the rural South, for that matter. There is all this about how good old boys would wake up in the middle of the night in the apple shacks and hear an overcharged engine roaring over Brushy Mountain and say, "Listen at him -- there he goes!", although that part is doubtful, since some nights there were so many good old boys taking off down the road in supercharged automobiles out of Wilkes County, and running loads to Charlotte, Salisbury, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point, or wherever, it would be pretty hard to pick out one. It was Junior Johnson specifically, however, who was famous for the "bootleg turn" or "about-face," in which, if the Alcohol Tax agents had a roadblock up for you or were too close behind, you threw the car into second gear, cocked the wheel, stepped on the accelerator and made the car's rear end skid around in a complete 180-degree arc, a complete about-face, and tore on back up the road exactly the way you came from. God! The Alcohol Tax agents used to burn over Junior Johnson. Practically every good old boy in town in Wilkesboro, the county seat, got to know the agents by sight in a very short time. They would rag them practically to their faces on the subject of Junior Johnson, so that it got to be an obsession. Finally, one night they had Junior trapped on the road up toward the bridge around Millersville, there's no way out of there, they had the barricades up and they could hear this souped-up car roaring around the bend, and here it comes -- but suddenly they can hear a siren and see a red light flashing in the grille, so they think it's another agent, and boy, they run out like ants and pull those barrels and boards and sawhorses out of the way, and then -- Ggghhzzzzzzzhhhhhggggggzzzzzzzeeeeeong! -- gawdam! there he goes again, it was him, Junior Johnson!, with a gawdam agent's si-reen and a red light in his grille!

http://www.esquire.com/features/life-of ... wolfe-0365

[Seth]

"any natural or man-made disaster that results in chaos, anarchy and/or civil disorder where individuals will be left without government support, aid or protection and will be required to fend for themselves."

I would argue that any man-made disaster is most likely to have been caused by government in the first place. - A small and perhaps irrelevant point, I know...

It's not small or irrelevant in the least. In fact one of the primary concerns of preppers (not to mention the Constitution) is being prepared for a time when the government becomes the enemy and armed resistance is required against tyrannical government actions.

[Seth]

On preparing for disaster.

First, predict your disaster. The best basis for such prediction is to see what disasters have happened in the recent past. The more such disasters in your country, the more likely one will happen in the future. So if I were living in the US mid west, I would look seriously at how to survive a tornedo. In my country, I would be more concerned about earthquake.

Personally, I have a small stock of emergency food and first aid equipment, and water. I can survive in my home without outside help for a month. Experience with likely disasters elsewhere shows that this is ample.

On this basis, how sensible are those who build bomb shelters and stockpile weapons?

Answer : not at all!

There have been no disasters in either NZ or the USA for non criminal groups that require either. If the Americans here are preparing for tornedos, or hurricanes, I say well done. If they are preparing for armageddon, I say : "What a bunch of loonies!"

Thing is, all the preparations you would make for any disaster are exactly the same as you would make for civil disorder requiring armed defense. Don't know if you know about LA's Watts riots of the 70s and the redux after the Rodney King incident, but the only stores that were left unlooted and unburned in Watts were the ones owned by Asians who had planned ahead and were armed with shotguns and handguns that they used to drive off rioters and looters. And then there's the famous LA bank robbery with the two perps in full body armor with a trunkload of illegal machine guns and ammo who shot it out with the cops in North Hollywood. The police didn't carry rifles in their patrol cars and their handguns were inadequate to the task of putting down heavily-armed-and-armored killers with machine guns. Several officers went to a local gun store and commandeered all the "assault weapons" the store had in stock, pushing them out the door in a shopping cart, in a desperate attempt to upgrade their armament to deal with the robbers. As it happens, the SWAT team finally arrived (after many people including police officers were wounded) and took down the robbers...with rifles and H&K MP5 submachine guns...so the commandeered rifles were never put into action.

As a result of that incident, all LA patrol officers are issued AR style .223 "patrol rifles" and ammunition so they can engage shooters from long distance with useful results.

Then there's New Orleans after Katrina, where the police went around ILLEGALLY seizing firearms from anyone and everyone, the very arms they needed to fend off roving gangs of murderous looters who shot and killed many people in the chaotic aftermath of the storm. That particular Ray Nagin (former mayor) idiocy resulted in a FEDERAL law that prohibits federal relief agents from confiscating firearms during natural disasters, and a good many STATE laws that do the same thing at the STATE level.

Why should I be any less well-armed than the police when it comes to natural disasters, homicidal armed robbers or rioting mobs intent on burning down my house with me in it?

Surviving for 72 hours or longer on your own when government collapses and becomes ineffective for any reason will usually require self-protection capabilities in addition to survival and evacuation planning and supplies because in many cases, particularly in urban areas, when law enforcement is overburdened and unable to respond, thugs, thieves and killers will take that opportunity to run wild and unhindered and it's up to each and every law-abiding member of the community to exercise their right and authority to both enforce the law and protect themselves, their families, their neighbors and their community against such evil.

And should the government failure be long-standing...like Syria for example...where people are literally starving to death now, having a bug-out location, a bunker and a stockpile of necessaries is nothing more than common sense and good strategy, if you can afford it. If you can't, your plan needs to be different and it should include shelter-in-place along with neighborhood/community participation and planning for community-wide safety and survival...even the survival of the brainless ostrich-like idiots who insist there is no possibility of something bad happening and therefore they need not plan or prepare.

[Seth]

Part of my hurricane preparations, which I take pretty seriously since I live in Hurricane Central, is a well stocked armory. As Jack pointed out, in the aftermath of a catastrophic storm there will be those who ignored the warnings and did not prepare. They won't have food, water, fuel, medicines, a generator or other necessities. A certain percentage of those people will resort to looting or robbery in order to obtain those things. There is also a segment of the population who would see a disaster like that as a perfect opportunity to get a new TV or car, rape somebody, or just engage in a bit of random violence. Look up "Hurricane Katrina" for an object lesson in just how fucked up some people are. Hence the necessity for arms.

When cyclones (our term for hurricanes) have hit in various parts of Australia, there has been massive destruction at times, but relatively little looting (some from supermarkets, I gather) and virtually no violence. The same applies to our other major potential disaster, bush fires. There is certainly need for rational preparation and stock-piling supplies in areas threatened by such events (not so much in suburban Melbourne, but at least we have water tanks...). There is absolutely no need to stockpile weapons in societies such as Australia and NZ...

...until there is, by which time it's far, far too late.

Must I remind you that Mad Max was filmed in Australia?

Or that many Australians are well-known to be prone to a bit of the old ultra-violence from time to time.

The veneer of civilization is actually very, very thin...everywhere.

Refusing to recognize that fact is stupidity that will get you killed.

On the other hand, my safe full of firearms and all the other esoteric accoutrements of prepping I have are entirely and completely benign and utterly harmless right up until I've been given legal authority to use them in self-defense. They just sit there like the inanimate lumps of metal they are until they are needed, and thus are no danger to anyone, much less the public in general, so there's absolutely no reason NOT to have them if that's my pleasure, because if I DO need them, there will be no opportunity to go and buy one because if I don't have immediate access to it, I'll be dead.

That makes NOT having a gun or two an incredibly short-sighted and stupid idea.

[JimC]

Mad Max wasn't a documentary...

And sure, Aussies can be violent - but all you need to do is to avoid the outside of pubs at closing time...

What I really mean is, aside from end-of-the world scenarios, disasters in Oz at the level of your Katrina do require rational planning and moderate stockpiling of basic supplies, but simply do not require survivalist-style weapons stockpiles...

[Seth]

The aftermath of Katrina could be used as an example of why it's a good idea to arm yourself against rogue police, for that matter.

That may be true in certain places of the US, but it's not true in civilised regions of the world...

Actually, the obverse is actually true. You're far safer from rogue cops and soldiers in the US than you are anywhere else on earth except perhaps Switzerland. You see, however unlikely it is that the police or military will go rogue, if they do, and you don't have the arms with which to put them down and restore order, you're just another candidate for baking.