Another shot at the case against gnus

[mistermack]

Is there some unwritten rule in America, that you can't be an idiot AND a criminal?
From what I've seen, the two go together rather well.

We all have to be wary of the idiots and criminals. That's a fact of life. I would personally prefer for them not to be armed, neither legally or illegally. So if I inadvertently come into some kind of conflict or disagreement with one of the wankers, I at least don't have to worry about them pulling a gun.

Basically, the guns make the place a shittier place to live. But of course, if you grow up with shit all around you, you become used to the smell. That's America in a nutshell. The guns are shit, they degrade the quality of life, but Americans don't know anything else.

[Seth]

Criminals with concealed carry permits. 'Nough said.

He wasn't a criminal until he used his weapon improperly. Now he is, and probably won't be permitted to carry a weapon any longer. That's how it's supposed to work.

You persist in stating the fallacy of composition that wrongly assumes that because the parts of the whole A, B, and C have characteristic F that this means that the whole has characteristic F.

[Seth]

Is there some unwritten rule in America, that you can't be an idiot AND a criminal?
From what I've seen, the two go together rather well.

They do indeed. That's why we don't let criminals carry guns and why, when someone acts like an idiot with a gun, we revoke their right to carry one.

We all have to be wary of the idiots and criminals. That's a fact of life. I would personally prefer for them not to be armed, neither legally or illegally. So if I inadvertently come into some kind of conflict or disagreement with one of the wankers, I at least don't have to worry about them pulling a gun.

Wouldn't we all. Problems is that there is absolutely no way on earth to be certain that anyone you encounter on the street in any given day is NOT carrying a gun. This is of course why they are called "concealed weapons." There is lawful concealed carry and there is unlawful concealed carry. In both cases you, the hoplophobe, have absolutely no idea which of the people you encounter each day are armed, either with a firearm or some other deadly weapon.

The one thing you can be reasonably sure of however is that those who are authorized to carry a firearm concealed are highly unlikely to shoot you with it unless you give them a reason to do so. The same is not true of those who illegally carry weapons.

Basically, the guns make the place a shittier place to live. But of course, if you grow up with shit all around you, you become used to the smell. That's America in a nutshell. The guns are shit, they degrade the quality of life, but Americans don't know anything else.

You only think they are shit because the propagandists you grew up under falsely told you that the smell of freedom smells like shit. Here's a clue: It doesn't, they lied to you.

[Hermit]

Criminals with concealed carry permits. 'Nough said.

He wasn't a criminal until he used his weapon improperly. Now he is, and probably won't be permitted to carry a weapon any longer. That's how it's supposed to work.

And look how well it works too.

(Cue lectures on the myth that its guns that are the cause of fewer murders and the Founding Fathers.)

[Tero]

But thanks for four examples of legally wrongful actions. Now, about the other 299,999,999 guns in America that are not used wrongfully....Your point is?

That guns are much too easily obtained by idiots. Who usually become criminals due to the idiotic things they do with the guns.

[Seth]

But thanks for four examples of legally wrongful actions. Now, about the other 299,999,999 guns in America that are not used wrongfully....Your point is?

That guns are much too easily obtained by idiots. Who usually become criminals due to the idiotic things they do with the guns.

Okay, so let's say, arguendo that you are correct, and idiots can get guns "much too easily." What's your solution to that particular problem?

[Tero]

Training, tests, permits. The most idiotic owners will lose it for a year for joy shooting. And will only get a .22 permit. Hunting rifles to be locked up at hunting clubs. Club will lose permit for use other than hunting or firing range.

[Seth]

Training, tests, permits. The most idiotic owners will lose it for a year for joy shooting. And will only get a .22 permit. Hunting rifles to be locked up at hunting clubs. Club will lose permit for use other than hunting or firing range.

So, all 200 million non-idiot gun owners must go through this ordeal because a tiny number of idiots misuse their guns? Really?

As for training, that's already being done. In order to hunt anywhere in the US you have to take a hunter safety class that includes hunting rules and regulations, gun safety training, and many other necessary items of knowledge for the novice hunter. Twelve year-olds take the class by the tens of thousands every year, successfully. And then they go hunting and target shooting successfully and safely.

I've said before that I strongly advocate mandatory universal firearms training as a part of school curricula beginning in the first grade and continuing through high school graduation. I've not yet heard a comment from you about this proposal. Every single child should receive comprehensive safety, marksmanship and maintenance training every year in age-appropriate doses. The power to compel this is within the power of the Congress under its authority to raise and train armies, and instituting such a program would have many, many benefits including reducing accidents and identifying "stupid" people who cannot exercise their rights properly.

So would you agree to a requirement that every child be taught the fundamentals of firearms safety and marksmanship as a part of required educational courses?

As for "hunting clubs," please explain your rationale for requiring firearms to be locked up at a "club" rather than in the possession of their owner. A gun locked up at a club is useless for it's most important purpose: self defense. It's also inconvenient, annoying, expensive and unnecessary give the incredibly tiny number of firearms that are carelessly or negligently or even criminally used to cause harm. Why should 200 million people be forced into a "club" when they have done absolutely nothing wrong?

As for penalties, they already exist. There are more than 50,000 laws in the US about firearms and firearms use, all of which are criminal offenses that will get you jail time if you violate them, particularly if you hurt someone besides yourself doing so.

What more is needed than that, and why?

[Tero]

Absolutely, the ordeal. Same as driving a car.

For gun safety, kids under 16 can be taught to hold and carry guns back to gun safe and lock it. Key is to be given to mom or grandma till dad or the both parents are sober.

[Seth]

Absolutely, the ordeal. Same as driving a car.

For gun safety, kids under 16 can be taught to hold and carry guns back to gun safe and lock it. Key is to be given to mom or grandma till dad or the both parents are sober.

I owned my first .22 when I was 8 and was allowed to use it at my discretion after thorough safety and marksmanship training by my father. Never once shot up a school or killed anybody.
Hell, I could go to the hardware store and buy a box of 500 .22 rounds at 8 years old back then. You know what, I never heard of a single school shooting when I was a child, nor throughout most of my adult life, despite taking my .22 to school once a week (with ammunition) on the school bus for NRA-sponsored marksmanship training at the school rifle range.

Maybe children in the UK are simply too genetically defective to be trusted with guns, but around here my experience was and is quite typical.

[Tero]

I can see lots of situations where an 8 year old would use stupidity. They would shoot someone in haste. Some of it just "culture" picked up from hilllbilly dad.

[Seth]

I can see lots of situations where an 8 year old would use stupidity. They would shoot someone in haste. Some of it just "culture" picked up from hilllbilly dad.

Your penchant for paranoid speculation doesn't constitute an argument, much less evidence of a problem.

I reiterate for the umpteenth time, most gun accidents happen in homes where children are ignorant of firearms and firearms safety. Very, very few accidents occur where children are taught about guns and gun safety from an early age.

[Hermit]

Your penchant for paranoid speculation...

[pErvinalia]

same thing I couldn't get past.

[Tero]

So we need to teach 8 year olds to "stand your ground" instead of teaching them to lock the gun away.

8-year olds typically are thinking of their constitutional rights all day.