What did this family not have that it needed?

[Seth]

Some years ago when I lived in that London I was awoken by the sound of breaking glass from downstairs. In some kind of adrenaline fugue I (quite litetally) leapt out of bed, sprinted through the bedroom door, and after (almost miraculously) taking the stairs four at a time hurtled into the kitchen to find a scrawny scaghead halfway through the bottom half of the sash window.

There's nothing more certain to disenchant the would-be burglar than seeing an irate and naked skinny white guy charging at you with a raging nocturnal erection.

Fair point. Or....fair poing!

That's what I call a "war face!"

[Hermit]

In truth, only a very small number of Americans get shot in any given year

Orly?

America's Top Killing Machine

For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths.

[Seth]

In truth, only a very small number of Americans get shot in any given year

Orly?

America's Top Killing Machine

For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths.

The pertinent question is who, exactly, gets killed by guns. Mostly it's crooks. No big loss there.

[laklak]

That figure also includes suicides.

[JimC]

In truth, only a very small number of Americans get shot in any given year

Orly?

America's Top Killing Machine

For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths.

The pertinent question is who, exactly, gets killed by guns. Mostly it's crooks. No big loss there.

As long as you're happy to call over 30,000 "a very small number"...

[Hermit]

That figure also includes suicides.

Correct. Blowing your head off Hemingway style kind of resembles a firearms related fatality.

[Blind groper]

I have argued this one before. Suicides do count in this debate, for three reasons.

1. Most suicides are impulsive. People get depressed and attempt suicide. If they succeed, they are dead. If they do not succeed, they realise they truly did not want to die, and in most cases, they never try again. The impulse lasts somewhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours, and if no suicide means, like a gun, is found in that time, they live.

2. Most suicides fail. In the USA, there are 220,000 attempts each year and only 20,000 'succeed'. The failures do not normally ever try again.

3. However, if a person has access to a gun, they do not get a second chance. There is a 90% 'success' rate with a gun, and the 10% who 'fail' do not bear thinking about, in terms of the terrible wounds they inflict on themselves. With a gun, there is no chance to realise that you do not really want to die. There is no second chance, as is normally the case with most other methods. Gun availability to people who might attempt suicide is tragic. Of the 20,000 successful suicides each year in the USA, 12,000 are done with a gun. If those guns were not available, most of those people would survive and go on to have a decent chance at a full life.

[laklak]

Of course there's no second chance, that's the whole goddamned point of the gun. Take away my pistol I'll use the 12 gauge and pull the trigger with my toe.

So 220,000 attempt it but only 20,000 succeed? Only 10% succeed, so what's the problem? New Zealand has a suicide rate of 11.5 / 100,000 or 0.0115%, the U.S. has a rate of 12.5 / 100,000 or 0.0125%. That's a 0.001% difference. You honestly think a 0.001% difference is worth restricting the rights of 315,000,000 people?

You have no argument.

[Blind groper]

Laklak

The biggest piece of total bullshit in your argument is the idea that having a gun is a human right. It is not. It is an aberration found only in the USA, and nowhere else, and is the result of lobbying by the NRA, and other stooges of the gun manufacturing industries. Elsewhere in the world, people are more sane. Rather than a right, it is just a method used by the gun makers to make more $$$.

[laklak]

BG I don't give a rat shit about human rights, and I never mentioned "human rights" in any of my posts. You're shifting goalposts yet again (surprise, surprise), because I showed your suicide argument to be baseless nonsense. I don't care about your rights, or Hermit's rights, or mrjonno's rights, I only give a fuck about mine. And I DO have a right to own a firearm, says so right there in the constitution, supported by the Supreme Court and legislation in all 50 states and on a Federal level. Given my concealed carry permit I have a legally protected right to carry it around with me, concealed on my person. Given my state's Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine laws I have a right to use that weapon in self-defense. That is a simple fact, and cannot be argued.

[Seth]

That figure also includes suicides.

No big loss there either...

[Seth]

In truth, only a very small number of Americans get shot in any given year

Orly?

America's Top Killing Machine

For the better part of a century, the machine most likely to kill an American has been the automobile.

Car crashes killed 33,561 people in 2012, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Firearms killed 32,251 people in the United States in 2011, the most recent year for which the Centers for Disease Control has data.

But this year gun deaths are expected to surpass car deaths.

The pertinent question is who, exactly, gets killed by guns. Mostly it's crooks. No big loss there.

As long as you're happy to call over 30,000 "a very small number"...

Compared to the other 300 million people who get their rights infringed and their safety compromised because of bleeding-heart liberals, yes, it's a small number.

[Seth]

I have argued this one before. Suicides do count in this debate, for three reasons.

1. Most suicides are impulsive. People get depressed and attempt suicide. If they succeed, they are dead. If they do not succeed, they realise they truly did not want to die, and in most cases, they never try again. The impulse lasts somewhere between 10 minutes and 2 hours, and if no suicide means, like a gun, is found in that time, they live.

So what? Their psychological crisis is not justification for disarming the other 300 million of us. This stupid notion that you have that by banning guns you will prevent suicide is ludicrous. If somebody wants to off himself, he will find a way to do so.

2. Most suicides fail. In the USA, there are 220,000 attempts each year and only 20,000 'succeed'. The failures do not normally ever try again.

Darwin at work.

3. However, if a person has access to a gun, they do not get a second chance.

Not my problem. Why would I dare to interfere with their fundamental human right of ending a life they can no longer tolerate? That's inhumane and evil.

There is a 90% 'success' rate with a gun, and the 10% who 'fail' do not bear thinking about, in terms of the terrible wounds they inflict on themselves.

Again, sad, but not my problem.

With a gun, there is no chance to realise that you do not really want to die.

You're quite wrong there, not that that is an excuse for banning guns.

There is no second chance, as is normally the case with most other methods.

Sucks to be them. Again, not my problem.

Gun availability to people who might attempt suicide is tragic.

So, put suicidal people in safe places where they can't get hold of a gun. Don't fuck with my human rights because they are weak-willed or depressed.

Of the 20,000 successful suicides each year in the USA, 12,000 are done with a gun. If those guns were not available, most of those people would survive and go on to have a decent chance at a full life.

Complete and utter unsupported bullshit. Your assumption that if there were no guns that those who wish to commit suicide won't find another method is laughably idiotic.

In any event, it's bad public policy to make laws that regulate everyone based on what some mentally deranged person might do. You want to help suicides, then help suicides, but don't try to destroy my rights and liberties in doing so. Their lives are not worth the sacrifice of my life should I need an gun and not have one because of people like you.

[Seth]

Laklak

The biggest piece of total bullshit in your argument is the idea that having a gun is a human right. It is not.

It is here in the US of A. It may not be in Sheepleland where you live, but that's just because you all are too cowardly to insist on enjoying your natural human rights.

It is an aberration found only in the USA, and nowhere else, and is the result of lobbying by the NRA, and other stooges of the gun manufacturing industries. Elsewhere in the world, people are more sane. Rather than a right, it is just a method used by the gun makers to make more $$$.

No, it's a natural, unalienable right. The United States Supreme Court has affirmed that fact several times just lately, specifically to include handguns, so the rest of y'all can fuck off.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

No, it's a natural, unalienable right.

In your nation, maybe, but fuck off trying to make it universal...